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Europa's Ocean is Oxygen Rich

Started by jimmy olsen, November 19, 2009, 06:55:05 PM

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Neil

Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2009, 01:02:46 AM
No, you don't understand.  Finding any non-terrestrial lifeforms that is not flying in a space ship is extremely bad.  It means that life is more common.  The more common life is the chances of actual extra-stellar travel decrease.  The Galaxy is really, really big.  It's got alot of stars many of which are much older then our Sun.  How ever, you'll notice there is a lack of alien space craft bothering us on Earth.  Some factor is preventing this.  What this factor is isn't known. It could be that suitable planets are very rare.  It could be that life is very rare or even unique.  It could be that tool building species are rare.  It could be that it's impossible to reliably travel between stars.  As a species we have moved past most of the these factors.  If the factor is that space travel is very hard or impossible then we are screwed.  If the factor is that life is rare we might be in the clear.  The discovery of life in outer space would reduce the number of possible factors limiting the number of spaceships in the Universe.
I think that attempting to draw any such conclusions based on discoveries regarding life on Europa to be rather premature.  Europa is perhaps the worst possible environment for spacefaring intelligence to evolve on.

Besides, we already know that space travel is very hard.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Josquius

Quote from: Tamas on November 20, 2009, 05:42:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 20, 2009, 05:34:12 AM

Or it could just be that civilization isn't too common (look at how long it took people to get that idea....especially industrial civilization)/

Uhm, compared to Earth's age, civilization just popped out in an instant.
Exactly.
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Grallon

Quote from: Neil on November 20, 2009, 07:40:54 AM

Besides, we already know that space travel is very hard.


We'd overcome such obstacles much more easily, and quickly, if this planet wasn't divided by intra-species conflicts.  All the diminishing resources of Earth could then be harnessed to lift us out of here.

This of course requires that Earth be united under one law.



G.
"Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself."

~Jean-François Revel

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Tyr on November 20, 2009, 09:03:37 AM
Exactly.

It was human level intelligence that was the stumbling block, civilization followed pretty quick.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Neil

Quote from: Grallon on November 20, 2009, 09:25:05 AM
We'd overcome such obstacles much more easily, and quickly, if this planet wasn't divided by intra-species conflicts.  All the diminishing resources of Earth could then be harnessed to lift us out of here.
And go where?  Earth is still the only safe place in the entire known universe for human life, a situation that will remain true for at least the next several centuries, and probably until the extinction of the species.
QuoteThis of course requires that Earth be united under one law.
Insofar as it is possible to do this, it has been done already.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Grallon

Quote from: Neil on November 20, 2009, 09:40:06 AM

And go where?  Earth is still the only safe place in the entire known universe for human life, a situation that will remain true for at least the next several centuries, and probably until the extinction of the species.

Safe place?  At the rate we're destoying it?  We need a bolt hole before it's too late and that means serious investments in space exploration.

Quote
Insofar as it is possible to do this, it has been done already.


Do not confuse the tyranny of the globalized elite with the rule of law.  Although perhaps this phase of untrameled profiteering is necessary before a global legal order is put in place.




G. 
"Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself."

~Jean-François Revel

Eddie Teach

Hey grallon, you looked at birth rates in developed countries lately?
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

garbon

Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2009, 02:24:16 AM
I am civic minded.  I am concerned about the propagation of the human race.  As a gay I'm not sure you would understand that.

Considering that you are less likely to have children than myself, no I don't get that.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Grallon

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 20, 2009, 09:57:12 AM
Hey grallon, you looked at birth rates in developed countries lately?

Increasing?  Decreasing?  What is your point?




G.
"Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself."

~Jean-François Revel

Josquius

#54
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 20, 2009, 09:35:27 AM
Quote from: Tyr on November 20, 2009, 09:03:37 AM
Exactly.

It was human level intelligence that was the stumbling block, civilization followed pretty quick.
It didn't.
Civilization has been around for...what...lets be very liberal and say 10,000 years.
Modern humans meanwhile have been around for 100,000 years at least. Depending on how strictly you define human up to 2 million years.
Just because you have a planet capable of supporting life doesn't mean life will evolve.
Just because you have life doesn't mean advanced life will evolve.
Just because you have advanced life doesn't mean intelligant life will evolve.
Just because you have intelligant life doesn't mean tool users will evolve.
Just because you have tool users doesn't mean civilization will evolve.
Just because you have civilization doesn't mean industrial civilization will evolve.
Just because you have industrial civilization doesn't mean they won't kill themselves off.
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Razgovory

Physically modern humans have been around for a while.  Behavioral modernity is much newer and coincides with the first aspects of civilization (art, complex tools, etc.)
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Neil

Quote from: Grallon on November 20, 2009, 09:53:32 AM
Safe place?  At the rate we're destoying it?  We need a bolt hole before it's too late and that means serious investments in space exploration.
Destroying it?  Things are happening in the environment, but none of them threaten the planet, or even the existance of life on Earth.  Even after some kind of ecological catastrophe, Earth will still be much more habitable to human life than any likely alternative.  In fact, I seriously doubt that, barring atomics, human activity has the ability to make the planet uninhabitable.
QuoteDo not confuse the tyranny of the globalized elite with the rule of law.  Although perhaps this phase of untrameled profiteering is necessary before a global legal order is put in place.
I understand what you're trying to say, although I don't think it's impossible.  Nevertheless, the web of treaties and organizations that compose the soft international law of today do unite the world under one law.  That's as far as it can go, since what people have the will to unite mankind?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

DontSayBanana

Quote from: Grallon on November 20, 2009, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 20, 2009, 09:57:12 AM
Hey grallon, you looked at birth rates in developed countries lately?
Increasing?  Decreasing?  What is your point?

G.

Increasing; we're nearing 7 billion, IIRC.  I think the point he's making is that in terms of ecology, humans are largely parasites, and further, we're parasites that breed fast.  Fast-breeding organisms tend to starve themselves out and die off.
Experience bij!

Eddie Teach

Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 20, 2009, 11:04:00 AM
Increasing; we're nearing 7 billion, IIRC.  I think the point he's making is that in terms of ecology, humans are largely parasites, and further, we're parasites that breed fast.  Fast-breeding organisms tend to starve themselves out and die off.

:frusty:

Developed, not developing. In Europe it's well below the replacement rate.

My point is that we'll be able to keep using this planet for the forseeable future.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Neil

Birth rates aren't particularily important.  Population growth rates are.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.