A NATO Without Turkey?

[Grinning_Colossus]

The Turks have already been lost, and it's not just about Europe. I think too few people realize just how deeply hated the United States is in Turkey (and no, Obama didn't make much of a difference). Sure, the moderate government will go through the motions of being an ally for a little while longer, but at it's core Turkey is definitely not a friendly country.

But you should remember its unfriendly as in France. Not unfriendly as in Iran.

Really?

http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=1&mode=chart

The Turks seems to hate everyone, though. From the same website, their opinions of Russia, China, and the EU are almost as low.

[Viking]

The Turks seems to hate everyone, though. From the same website, their opinions of Russia, China, and the EU are almost as low.

Jepp, and everybody (except the americans) seem to reciprocate.

[Syt]

The Turks seems to hate everyone, though. From the same website, their opinions of Russia, China, and the EU are almost as low.

Jepp, and everybody (except the americans) seem to reciprocate.

Well, it's kinda understandable. Most Europeans' first hand experience with Turks is with Turkish immigrants. In Vienna about 20+% of inhabitants are first or second generation imigrants. Plenty Ex-Yugos, East Europeans, some Blacks, Indians, East Asians and many Turks. All groups - though having distinct communities - see learning German as a key to success and acceptance ... except one group where third generation kids still struggle to learn German when they enter kindergarten or school ... guess which one.

Hint: it's the same group where more than 50% say they're superior to all others because they are followers of Islam and that Islamic views should enter Austrian law.

Further hint:


Tellingly, colleagues just returned from a business trip to Istanbul. They were surprised to (seemingly) see *less* women and girls with headscarves than in Vienna.

[Richard Hakluyt]

That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.

[Valmy]

That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.

Why?  Why would they do live in a city full of degenerate westerners they despise?  Why don't they immigrate to a Muslim country?

I just do not get it.  It makes me overjoyed with our immigrants.

[Syt]

That probably reflects where Vienna gets it's Turks from Syt. I've been assured by friends and family that have visited Istanbul that the city is much more Western than expected. Maybe the Turks in Vienna come largely from some eastern hellhole.

That's what I'm getting at; I get the same feedback. The large majority of Turks coming to Germany or Austria are not from the Western parts of Turkey (which are on par with the rest of the geographical area) but from the poor/conservative East who migrate for economic reasons - many of them of course called by the respective European governments when workers were scarce.

You'll most likely notice immediately when you meet a West Turk, because they'll be much more likely to speak German, have a decent job and/or uni degree and will look down on the East Turks (who live by the bushel in my district).

[Richard Hakluyt]

I guess they are there for the money 

Syt might be able to give us more info.

All of these immigrations have a different background and story. Turkish immigrants to Britain are not generally regarded as a problem. But we do have a problem with our Pakistanis. Maybe we are getting better Turks than the Germans and Austrians    I do know that most of our Pakistani immigrants come from a backward and conservative area in Pakistan, which is probably the main problem rather than their religion.

[Josquius]

You just did that though. You said really and posted a link that shows nothing.

France 75% vs. Turkey 14% shows that your analogy was complete bollocks.

Not really.
French hate of the US is well known from the Iraq war days. Too many morons though think the only form of hate is outright 'kill kill kill'

[Eddie Teach]

:facepalm: On so many different levels.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

the best of both worlds would of course be a turkey without turkey. If only the Asia Minor Greeks hadn't turned traitor but instead had opted to fight their barbaric oppressors.

[Syt]

I guess they are there for the money 

Syt might be able to give us more info.

A lot of them stem from guest workers from way back when. They worked, stayed here, brought (extended) family over. Many of those were called for work in production, and come from por areas, often not having visited a school in Turkey. Later there were political refugees (mostly Kurds). In 2000 there were ca. 2 million Turks in Germany, 750,000 of those born there. In 2008 the number was down to 1.7 million, but about 300,000 had been naturalized in the meantime. Since 2000, kids of Turkish parents automatically get German citizenship. In 2008, 700,000 naturalized Turks lived in Germany.

30% of Turks or those with Turksih roots have no school degree, only 14% have Abitur (A Level?). According to official statistics, over 40% of Turks in Berlin are unemployed. Over 40% of Turks or naturalized Turks are threatened by poverty.


Hell, even the Turkish Prime Minister, when visiting Germany in 2008 and speaking to a Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks, he urged them to learn the local language if they wanted to make any headway.

[Valmy]

Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks

Well it is sort of hard to stay apart from the German culture and know German.  Eventually you will become a German sorta Turk.

[Warspite]

Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks

Well it is sort of hard to stay apart from the German culture and know German.  Eventually you will become a German sorta Turk.

He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.

[Valmy]

He probably meant more extreme 'assimilation' in the sense of being forced to reject your heritage, I would imagine.

Yeah I have actually never heard of that sort of assimilation.  That sounds like a scare tactic, some sort of straw man to attack.  OMG!  Don't give an inch or you will lose your Turkishness foreva!

They will simply be Germans who have Turkish ancestory and cultural traditions who will feel very Turkish...until they go back to Turkey someday and realize how very German they actually are also.  Like most "assimilated" immigrants.

[Queequeg]

Hell, even the Turkish Prime Minister, when visiting Germany in 2008 and speaking to a Turkish/Turk-German audience pointed out that while he rejected assimilation of the Turks, he urged them to learn the local language if they wanted to make any headway.

Assimilation is a much harder process than is generally presumed. We in America had a great amount of difficulty assimilating radicalized 48ers, even though they went on to be one of the most crucial components of the US Army in the Civil War.  Same goes with the Irish, the Italians, even the Jews. 

I don't doubt that things will improve, with time.  Just remember that it is not that uncommon for second and third generation immigrants to identify with their supposed homeland far more than would seem logical. But it tends to work out in the end.