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The Limits of Free Speech

Started by Sheilbh, August 16, 2009, 07:10:03 AM

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Viking

#30
August 17, 2009, 01:03:41 PM
Quote from: dps on August 17, 2009, 12:59:27 PM

Spanish Civil War veterens, maybe?  :D

Arachosyndicalism always felt a bit selfcontradictory to me.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Razgovory

#31
August 17, 2009, 02:17:39 PM
Quote from: Viking on August 17, 2009, 01:03:41 PM
Quote from: dps on August 17, 2009, 12:59:27 PM

Spanish Civil War veterens, maybe?  :D

Arachosyndicalism always felt a bit selfcontradictory to me.

It's like a hive mentality.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Sheilbh

#32
August 17, 2009, 02:40:33 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2009, 12:31:32 PM
What effect would you say that this myth has?
Hollywood :P

What's the effect of the myth in France?  I don't think myths have much effect most of the time.
Let's bomb Russia!

MadImmortalMan

#33
August 17, 2009, 02:50:29 PM
Question: Can a person be charged with inciting a crime if said crime was never committed or attempted?


I think the answer is yes, but it seems like there would be something fundamentally wrong with that.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

DGuller

#34
August 17, 2009, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 02:50:29 PM
Question: Can a person be charged with inciting a crime if said crime was never committed or attempted?


I think the answer is yes, but it seems like there would be something fundamentally wrong with that.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with it.  It seems equivalent to threatening to murder someone, without doing it.  Threats alone can terrorize someone.  In fact, having a blueprint to your murder be posted on the Internet would strike me as a hell of a lot more terrorizing than a threat from one individual.

garbon

#35
August 17, 2009, 03:13:18 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on August 17, 2009, 02:40:33 PM
Hollywood :P

What's the effect of the myth in France?  I don't think myths have much effect most of the time.

Then I fail to see the relevance of the "observation."
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

MadImmortalMan

#36
August 17, 2009, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 17, 2009, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 02:50:29 PM
Question: Can a person be charged with inciting a crime if said crime was never committed or attempted?


I think the answer is yes, but it seems like there would be something fundamentally wrong with that.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with it.  It seems equivalent to threatening to murder someone, without doing it.  Threats alone can terrorize someone.  In fact, having a blueprint to your murder be posted on the Internet would strike me as a hell of a lot more terrorizing than a threat from one individual.


True, but there got to be some sort of threshold to cross. I mean what about more minor crimes? Consider the following hypothetical conversation on the interpipes:

Quote

Fireblade: Jaron, you should stop paying your taxes, man. It's not right.

Jaron: FB, that's crazy-talk. I don't think I'll be participating in your not paying taxes plan. You're all kooky and shit.



In this instance, is Fireblade guilty of inciting tax evasion?

How about this:

Quote

Fireblade:  Jaron, you should stop paying your taxes, man. It's not right.

Jaron: I'll think about it.



You don't know if Jaron decided to go along with it! OMG!


Or this:

Quote

Fireblade: All you niggaz need to stop paying your taxes until Barack legalizes weed!



Maybe everyone stops paying. Maybe one or two. How many counts of inciting tax evasion should Fireblade be charged with?
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

garbon

#37
August 17, 2009, 04:31:08 PM
Thanks, Mart, but wouldn't a more analogous situation be one where Fireblade encourages us to not pay taxes and tells us how to stash our money outside of the country/get paid under the table?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

DontSayBanana

#38
August 17, 2009, 04:31:35 PM
It seems like the threshold is probable intent. Conspiracy involves planning for the crime, but doesn't seem to require that the crime is actually committed.
Experience bij!

MadImmortalMan

#39
August 17, 2009, 04:32:28 PM
Hey! It's the best I can do half paying attention to the meeting I'm in.  :P
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

Barrister

#40
August 17, 2009, 04:36:25 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 02:50:29 PM
Question: Can a person be charged with inciting a crime if said crime was never committed or attempted?


I think the answer is yes, but it seems like there would be something fundamentally wrong with that.

Answer: yes.

The reason is very practical - you want the police to be able to stop crimes before they happen (and be able to arrest and charge accordingly) - not wait until after the criminal commits the deed.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

MadImmortalMan

#41
August 17, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on August 17, 2009, 04:36:25 PMyou want the police to be able to stop crimes before they happen

As a general rule, I do not want this. Only in certain circumstances. Like blowing up a courthouse.  :P
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

garbon

#42
August 17, 2009, 05:08:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
As a general rule, I do not want this.

Indeed.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

The Minsky Moment

#43
August 17, 2009, 05:15:59 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 02:50:29 PM
Question: Can a person be charged with inciting a crime if said crime was never committed or attempted?


I think the answer is yes, but it seems like there would be something fundamentally wrong with that.

Conspiracy requires only an agreement to do something illegal and an overt act in furtherance of the agreement which act in itself can be wholly lawful.  So this is not that unusual concept.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Martinus

#44
August 17, 2009, 05:54:59 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: DGuller on August 17, 2009, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on August 17, 2009, 02:50:29 PM
Question: Can a person be charged with inciting a crime if said crime was never committed or attempted?


I think the answer is yes, but it seems like there would be something fundamentally wrong with that.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with it.  It seems equivalent to threatening to murder someone, without doing it.  Threats alone can terrorize someone.  In fact, having a blueprint to your murder be posted on the Internet would strike me as a hell of a lot more terrorizing than a threat from one individual.


True, but there got to be some sort of threshold to cross. I mean what about more minor crimes? Consider the following hypothetical conversation on the interpipes:

Quote

Fireblade: Jaron, you should stop paying your taxes, man. It's not right.

Jaron: FB, that's crazy-talk. I don't think I'll be participating in your not paying taxes plan. You're all kooky and shit.



In this instance, is Fireblade guilty of inciting tax evasion?

How about this:

Quote

Fireblade:  Jaron, you should stop paying your taxes, man. It's not right.

Jaron: I'll think about it.



You don't know if Jaron decided to go along with it! OMG!


Or this:

Quote

Fireblade: All you niggaz need to stop paying your taxes until Barack legalizes weed!



Maybe everyone stops paying. Maybe one or two. How many counts of inciting tax evasion should Fireblade be charged with?

That's why we criminalize "incitement to violence" but not, say, "incitement to jaywalking".

As a rule, we criminalize "aiding and abetting" and a conspiracy to commit a crime, but not a mere incitement, unless the crime to which the incitement is being made is serious enough to warrant this.
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