Working From Home

[Tamas]

So if they can't monitor how do they know they are not working?

And Zoupa I am a PM and "spying" is not the reason I am kept around. :p

[HVC]

So if they can't monitor how do they know they are not working?

And Zoupa I am a PM and "spying" is not the reason I am kept around. :p

pissing off purchasing has to take up a large part of your day

[Zoupa]

"Productivity is identical or better but I don't get to justify all the project managers spying on you guys so we're gonna go back to in-office"

What does productivity have to do with time theft? 

are you justifying it on the basis that so long as an employee maintains a minimum productivity level, it's ok?

Of course it is. Why on Earth would a company want my time? What's valuable to them is what I produce.

That defence has been tried and rejected by the courts.  At least here.

And a hundred years ago you could beat your wife to death with a broomstick. I don't really care what the law says.

[Zoupa]

So if they can't monitor how do they know they are not working?

And Zoupa I am a PM and "spying" is not the reason I am kept around. :p

I was making a general comment in no way directed towards anybody on this forum 

[Tamas]

So if they can't monitor how do they know they are not working?

And Zoupa I am a PM and "spying" is not the reason I am kept around. :p

pissing off purchasing has to take up a large part of your day

More like them pissing me off. 


 

[crazy canuck]

"Productivity is identical or better but I don't get to justify all the project managers spying on you guys so we're gonna go back to in-office"

What does productivity have to do with time theft? 

are you justifying it on the basis that so long as an employee maintains a minimum productivity level, it's ok?

Of course it is. Why on Earth would a company want my time? What's valuable to them is what I produce.

That defence has been tried and rejected by the courts.  At least here.

And a hundred years ago you could beat your wife to death with a broomstick. I don't really care what the law says.

So basic contract law, the company is paying you x amount of wages for y amount of hours. An employee doesn't get to mess with the y variable according to their individual whims.  Maybe it works differently in Germany?

[Tamas]

What does the law define as punishment? Right to terminate the contract, damages, prison?

[HVC]

I *think* they can come back at you for excess wages, but not worth it lawyer fees wise. Can definitely terminate you for cause. We fired a tech for time theft. Last straw really, but it was something even the union couldn't fight so it worked out.

[Razgovory]

And a hundred years ago you could beat your wife to death with a broomstick. I don't really care what the law says.

Really?  Quebec is fucking weird.

[Zanza]

So basic contract law, the company is paying you x amount of wages for y amount of hours. An employee doesn't get to mess with the y variable according to their individual whims.  Maybe it works differently in Germany?

In German contact law, the core stipulation of an employment contract is that the employee owes a service and the employer directs the employee about this service and that this contractual relation is meant for a longer, typically indefinite term. How renumeration is structured, e.g. by the hour, is not defined contract law.

Of course labour law and a plethora of regulations or industry-wide collective bargaining will limit what you can actually put into an employment contract, but contract law itself is very free. Maybe different in other jurisdictions.

On renumeration, one option is of course by the hour, but a lot of people are paid differently, e.g. salary is the same every month regardless of working days in that month, based on revenue they generate for sales people or lawyers/consultants, based on discrete pieces of work they deliver etc.

Also while defining a time for which the service is owed by the employee per time period is extremely common and regulated heavily, that is not necessary from pure contract law.

PS: Are you mixing me (reference to Germany) and Zoupa (post you answer to) here?

[Josquius]

Thinking about things the only time since Japan I worked somewhere that took the contractual hours seriously it was when I worked at an absolutely dire company with a shit manager where bullying and other problems were rife.
This covers a lot of jobs that were officially 100% in office.
I don't think this is a wfh thing.

[Sheilbh]

Of course labour law and a plethora of regulations or industry-wide collective bargaining will limit what you can actually put into an employment contract, but contract law itself is very free. Maybe different in other jurisdictions.

Having worked with German lawyers on commercial contracts I have very serious doubts about whether contract law is very free

But you're right employment law is entirely separate and distinct. In the UK it's not collective bargaining but there's lots of regulations - and in a way it's not unlike consumer law. In theory it's a free contract between two parties, in practice there is a massive imbalance of power so it's very heavily regulated to try and level the playing field a bit/make it fair.

I'd say I've never really heard any talk about "time theft" anywhere I've worked. I've also never really seen this be an issue - when I've sen problems in a workplace it's because of the way that person works/if what they're producing is good rather than are they doing their hours.

Having said that I think I've also never seen anyone be fired outside of a probation period - except for the serious misconduct sort of issue wherer someone doesn't turn up one day and you get an email saying "x no longer works here" So my experience may be unusual.

Only place I've seen the fairly casual hiring firing was when I worked for an employment agency when I was a student - and that's kind of the way that works.

[crazy canuck]

What does the law define as punishment? Right to terminate the contract, damages, prison?

Both the right to terminate the contract without payment of any severance and a potential claim for damages, but damages is hard to prove. Depending on the fact pattern, there could also be the potential of a criminal fraud charges but those are very rare.

[crazy canuck]

So basic contract law, the company is paying you x amount of wages for y amount of hours. An employee doesn't get to mess with the y variable according to their individual whims.  Maybe it works differently in Germany?

In German contact law, the core stipulation of an employment contract is that the employee owes a service and the employer directs the employee about this service and that this contractual relation is meant for a longer, typically indefinite term. How renumeration is structured, e.g. by the hour, is not defined contract law.

Of course labour law and a plethora of regulations or industry-wide collective bargaining will limit what you can actually put into an employment contract, but contract law itself is very free. Maybe different in other jurisdictions.

On renumeration, one option is of course by the hour, but a lot of people are paid differently, e.g. salary is the same every month regardless of working days in that month, based on revenue they generate for sales people or lawyers/consultants, based on discrete pieces of work they deliver etc.

Also while defining a time for which the service is owed by the employee per time period is extremely common and regulated heavily, that is not necessary from pure contract law.

PS: Are you mixing me (reference to Germany) and Zoupa (post you answer to) here?

Here the requirement for salaried workers to devote their full-time and energy is even more enforcible in our contract law than an hourly page worker.

[Zanza]

I fail to see the significance for the WFH/office question though: The place were you do not fulfill your obligation seems irrelevant.