Changing your mind

[Darth Wagtaros]

I lost whatever hope I had for the future. Mine and the world's.  I used to hold out some for the world's.  Now I'm just disgusted.

[Threviel]

What does that estimate of 100€/month entail, Threviel?

Every refugee costs some number, IIRC 30-70 000 SEK every year for their entire lives, averaged out. We took in hundreds of thousands. There was a famous interview when the calculating scientist was accused of racism over the numbers and he more or less obliterated the journalists credibility in return.

I don't remember the exact calculation and I won't guarantee it, but it came out to about 1000 SEK per person and month. And it will go on for decades and decades and decades.

Edit: The scientist had calculated the economy of refugees and concluded that they cost money, the journalist asked him if it was responsible to publish these numbers in light of all racism. The scientist responded that facts are facts and that economy is not the reason that we are open to refugees.

My memory erred me, its 74 000 SEK per year per refugee.

[Zanza]

I see. Can't really comment on it due to lack of detailed knowledge, but have seen other inconclusive studies on the economic effect of refugees before.

By the way, the numbers seem inconsistent. 74000 SEK are about 7150 EUR. 100 EUR/month multiplied with 10 million persons in Sweden is like 12 billion EUR. That would allow for almost 1.7 million times the 7150 EUR costs per year. There are about 900k non-EU foreign born in Sweden, presumably not all refugees.

No idea which of the figures does not fit, but might be worth checking the figures if it determines your political views.

[Admiral Yi]

Not all of those 10 million are going to be taxpayers.

[Zanza]

Not all of those 10 million are going to be taxpayers.

Everybody pays VAT.

Anyway, was not clear to me as he wrote per person per month in the second post.

But maybe that is the inconsistent factor.

[Threviel]

Not all of those 10 million are going to be taxpayers.

Everybody pays VAT.

Anyway, was not clear to me as he wrote per person per month in the second post.

But maybe that is the inconsistent factor.

As I said, I don't actually have the details of the calculation. Perhaps it was per tax payer.

The point in my mind is that I have gone from a "Let them all in, we can help" to a "Let's first and foremost take care of our own, we can barely afford to help anyone else." (And with our own I mean all the ones we've taken in so far, Sweden is a rich place, we can do lots of good, but now its time for other nations to shine for a few generations)

[Zanza]

Understandable point and fits to the thread. I also became less ready to welcome refugees, mainly because of disappointment about lack of a cohesive European response (one notable exception being Sweden).

[Admiral Yi]

Threviel, any idea what those 74,000 butt sex get spent on.

I know here in the US we don't spend anything on our refugees.  We charge them for the evacuation flight and throw them in a packing plant right away.

[Threviel]

Threviel, any idea what those 74,000 butt sex get spent on.

I know here in the US we don't spend anything on our refugees.  We charge them for the evacuation flight and throw them in a packing plant right away.

I rent out a house. Every time I have an ad out there are dozens of immigrant families with lots of kids applying, most of them are on welfare and most of them have more income than we do. A few years ago there was a campaign about the poor people on welfare only affording one vacation each year and how that was unfair.

If one in a family get in and gets to live here they have a right to also take their families here, resulting in lots of old people coming and then getting pensions. Often young men comes here, claims to be under 18 (perhaps a lot of them are) and get treated as children. Once they get residence they bring in the whole family and so on.

They all get a place to live and generous welfare and help with language and applying for jobs. Few of them get any jobs and when they retire they get the same pensions that low income workers get.

There is no pressure for them to actually get a job and there are very few manual labour/low skill jobs to be had so they are all more or less condemned to a purposeless life in the poor suburbs living on generous social care. Criminality is rife and some suburbs in the bigger cities are on their way to banlieus. I saw a number the other day that every gang member costs 13 million SEK.

On a further note the 74000 number was calculated using historic and present data. So the calculation is based mostly on the refugees from South America/Greece/Turkey in the 70's and 80's and the balkanites from the 90's. I imagine that it will grow with harder to integrate africans and arabs.

[Razgovory]

Wait, wasn't your younger brother a refugee?  Fievel?  Little guy with a silly hat came to New York. I think he was a classmate of Dguller or something.  What about your other brothers Fourviel, Onviel, and Twoviel?

[Tamas]

I don't think concerns over integration of large masses of immigrants should be dismissed especially not with ridicule.

Sure most of the complainers are simply racist, but integrationndoes seem to be a complex process easy to mess up. It should be possible to scrutinise, review and improve on it.

[Josquius]

They cry you get racist for questioning the refugee system. But I would say quite the opposite. It's a shame you never see good faith examinations of it. Its always so deeply rooted in racism.
I've never seen this study but it sounds very questionable if it's saying the Chilean refugees of the 70s were a net loss.
Technically most people in themselves cost countries money. Nonetheless people are necessary for the more profitable aspects of running a country.

[Razgovory]

I don't think concerns over integration of large masses of immigrants should be dismissed especially not with ridicule.

Sure most of the complainers are simply racist, but integrationndoes seem to be a complex process easy to mess up. It should be possible to scrutinise, review and improve on it.

I'm mocking a name.

[Threviel]

And just to be clear, I think Sweden should have a generous policy on refugees. I'm proud of us doing our best to help people in need.

It's just that Swedish society is under a lot of strain right now. Lots of crime, shootings and stuff like that. Lots of people poor and without a chance in life.

I believe we should have had a more conservative and spent more energy on integration and on a good reception for the people coming here. And since about twice as many men as women have come in the latest waves I think we would have been better off with flying women and children directly here rather than let all the young men in.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

the dutch did a more recent study and the conclusions were the same iirc: a big net loss, and that wasn't even taking into account -iirc- the general degradation of social cohesion uncontrolled mass migration has caused and is causing.