In "honour" of 420 day a marijuana poll

[Razgovory]

Hell, I'd be fine legalizing almost all drugs.  Meth is a terrible drug and there isn't really any upside to taking it, but if it was legal people who are addicted to it may be more likely to seek out help.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Hell, I'd be fine legalizing almost all drugs.  Meth is a terrible drug and there isn't really any upside to taking it, but if it was legal people who are addicted to it may be more likely to seek out help.

Legalised drugs would at least have a more consistent strength and quality. There would be far fewer overdoses for example.

It would be far better to treat addictions as illnesses than to criminalise use...but we have said this so many times before.

[Tonitrus]

Hell, I'd be fine legalizing almost all drugs.  Meth is a terrible drug and there isn't really any upside to taking it, but if it was legal people who are addicted to it may be more likely to seek out help.

Legalised drugs would at least have a more consistent strength and quality. There would be far fewer overdoses for example.

It would be far better to treat addictions as illnesses than to criminalise use...but we have said this so many times before.

I don't know if that is entirely true. 

For example, even if legal, I doubt there will be a big scramble to produce "commercial/legal" meth as there has been with marijuana..it would probably be mostly small, fly-by-night companies that would skirt the regulatory edge.

And even if you heavily regulate/tax the now legal drugs...doing those both strictly enough will enable a significant homemade black market to still persist.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Thinking about it isn't Canada's black market in cannabis still really large? Something similar would probably happen with other drugs 

I still have no conception why people would start on meth or injecting themselves with heroin. People losing control over an alcohol, pot or cocaine habit I can see....could happen to anyone 
But why even start with such horrible drugs, I find it baffling 

[Josquius]

Hell, I'd be fine legalizing almost all drugs.  Meth is a terrible drug and there isn't really any upside to taking it, but if it was legal people who are addicted to it may be more likely to seek out help.

I'd agree in theory... Though maybe not with e.g. Meth. Doesn't it just exist due to the inaccessibility and expense of cocaine?

[Razgovory]

Hell, I'd be fine legalizing almost all drugs.  Meth is a terrible drug and there isn't really any upside to taking it, but if it was legal people who are addicted to it may be more likely to seek out help.

I'd agree in theory... Though maybe not with e.g. Meth. Doesn't it just exist due to the inaccessibility and expense of cocaine?

I'm not sure.  I don't think I'd let people sell it, it's like suicide in crystal form, but I don't want a situation where someone won't seek help because they fear legal repercussions.

I used to oppose drug legalization, back when I had a stick up my ass and I thought of only obeying the law, but I've shifted pretty far away from that position.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know if that is entirely true. 

For example, even if legal, I doubt there will be a big scramble to produce "commercial/legal" meth as there has been with marijuana..it would probably be mostly small, fly-by-night companies that would skirt the regulatory edge.

And even if you heavily regulate/tax the now legal drugs...doing those both strictly enough will enable a significant homemade black market to still persist.

Maybe. With pot a legal market has developed pretty quickly - and I know several very established big American/global law firms advertising their expertise in advising cannabis companies.

It's pretty surprising how quickly it's gone like htat.

[Tonitrus]

Sure, but I think a lot of people have this idea of a "legalize and tax" panacea, that I don't think is really true.

I agree the situation will probably be better than the status quo...but if you keep high taxes and regulation on it, there will still be a robust underground market.

Shoot, there is a still a robust trade in bootlegging untaxed/counterfeit tobacco cigarettes between US states (or from outside the US).

[Razgovory]

It certainly isn't a panacea and there will be downsides.  You'll see an increase consumption and with that you'll see increases in accidents, addictions and overdoses.  Cartels won't go away over night, they'll focus on other sources of revenue.  There will be unforeseen consequences. Still, I think it would be worth it.

[Malthus]

Thinking about it isn't Canada's black market in cannabis still really large? Something similar would probably happen with other drugs 

Canada's continuing black market, so I am told, is largely due to the odd fact that the regulated stuff tended to be of lower quality and higher cost than the black market stuff. This is not expected to continue into the future, though.

I still have no conception why people would start on meth or injecting themselves with heroin. People losing control over an alcohol, pot or cocaine habit I can see....could happen to anyone 
But why even start with such horrible drugs, I find it baffling 

With opiates, a part of the problem was caused by changes in pain management from a medical perspective. A story of the best of intentions gone wrong (and some skullduggery).

The basic story was this: in the 90s, there was a big shift in how pain was perceived in the medical community. Control of pain became a much more significant goal of medicine. Pain became known as the "fifth vital sign" health care professionals were supposed to look out for.

https://www.jointcommission.org/-/media/tjc/documents/resources/pain-management/pain_std_history_web_version_05122017pdf.pdf?db=web&hash=E7D12A5C3BE9DF031F3D8FE0D8509580

Unfortunately, this had a huge unintended consequence. Prescriptions for various forms of opioid skyrocketed. Some manufactures took advantage of this to promote their particular formulation as "non addictive" - they were lying. All opioids come with a risk of addiction.

Then it just became a numbers game. A certain percentage of those taking opioids legitimately, for pain management, became addicted. They started shopping for doctors willing to give them ever more of those marvellous pills. When their addiction got so severe they could not get "legitimate" prescriptions enough to fulfill them, they would have no choice but to go for the black market stuff - heroin and fentanyl.

Fentanyl is the real killer. It is cheap and way more potent than heroin. Problem is that it is so potent, it is very easy to screw up the dosage and so overdose accidentally. Since it is cheaper than heroin, pushers mix it in to cut heroin to make more money ...

And that is how we are in the current mess.

Basic problem is this: we simply don't have any powerful drugs to manage pain, that also do not create a risk of addiction. If so one is in pain, we have a choice - give them pain medicine, and risk them getting addicted; or tell them to endure it as best they can.

Our current system has turned a lot of pain patients into addicts (and so, criminals).

[Josquius]

True that.
Louis theroux did an excellent documentary on meth in a random town in West Virginia (iirc). A lot of addicts blamed proscription meds.
It is notable meth doesn't seem to be an issue at all outside the US

[Sheilbh]

I think it's a pretty big thing in Australia.

But yeah the only context I've heard about it in the UK is the very hardcore gay party scene.

[The Brain]

Pain can be controlled.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The UK appears to have escaped this prescription opioid problem so far. I wonder if there are cultural factors at play or whether it will inevitably spread here?

One reason we watch the US so closely is that if some numpty blows up half his state in a gender-reveal party it is more or less guaranteed that someone will do it in the UK 6 years later 

[Sheilbh]

The UK appears to have escaped this prescription opioid problem so far. I wonder if there are cultural factors at play or whether it will inevitably spread here?

More gatekeeping and rationing in healthcare is probably the biggest factor?