Military coup in Myanmar

[Syt]

Through selective reading of passages you like both Quran and Bible can either make a case for peace and brotherhood between everyone or discriminating against and killing those who disagree with you. Extremist or backwards Christian sects are just as worrisome to me as their Muslim counterparts. I think culture plays a significant role, possibly more than religion. I feel there's similar views on gender roles, homosexuality, foreigners etc. between Christian conservative communities living in the rural Alps and Muslims living in Eastern Anatolia and that their views are more alike than they are to their counterparts in Vienna or Istanbul.

[Threviel]

It's almost like the problems are social and economical inequalities rather than religion.

[Syt]

It's almost like the problems are social and economical inequalities rather than religion.

[Sheilbh]

Through selective reading of passages you like both Quran and Bible can either make a case for peace and brotherhood between everyone or discriminating against and killing those who disagree with you. Extremist or backwards Christian sects are just as worrisome to me as their Muslim counterparts. I think culture plays a significant role, possibly more than religion. I feel there's similar views on gender roles, homosexuality, foreigners etc. between Christian conservative communities living in the rural Alps and Muslims living in Eastern Anatolia and that their views are more alike than they are to their counterparts in Vienna or Istanbul.

And not even real culture.

I've said before that I struggle with the way some attacks by individuals become "terrorist" attacks when they say "Allah akbar" - that's enough, even though the attacks themselves emotionally - for me - feel more like school shooters than a terrorist attack. And if you look at these individuals it's the same sort of online culture that they're operating in as some school shooters have or some far-right extremists.

I feel like "terrorism" glamourises it  and I don't mean to take that even further - but I think there needs to be some network, some other people involved for something to be "terrorist". And actually the sort of radicalising young man online is something slightly different than a terrorist, whether that online "lone wolf" hates non-Muslims, women, gays, non-whites, Jews or whatever else. I almost feel like in viewing it through a terrorist lense we're missing the bigger picture and the real radicalisation that happened which is a very similar online culture.

[Duque de Bragança]

Through selective reading of passages you like both Quran and Bible can either make a case for peace and brotherhood between everyone or discriminating against and killing those who disagree with you. Extremist or backwards Christian sects are just as worrisome to me as their Muslim counterparts. I think culture plays a significant role, possibly more than religion. I feel there's similar views on gender roles, homosexuality, foreigners etc. between Christian conservative communities living in the rural Alps and Muslims living in Eastern Anatolia and that their views are more alike than they are to their counterparts in Vienna or Istanbul.

That's why Turkish-origin people al-Quran thumpers for instance vote for the useful idiot Left in Europe and Erdogan in Turkey. 

Nice whataboutism though. 

[Syt]

Through selective reading of passages you like both Quran and Bible can either make a case for peace and brotherhood between everyone or discriminating against and killing those who disagree with you. Extremist or backwards Christian sects are just as worrisome to me as their Muslim counterparts. I think culture plays a significant role, possibly more than religion. I feel there's similar views on gender roles, homosexuality, foreigners etc. between Christian conservative communities living in the rural Alps and Muslims living in Eastern Anatolia and that their views are more alike than they are to their counterparts in Vienna or Istanbul.

That's why Turkish-origin people al-Quran thumpers for instance vote for the useful idiot Left in Europe and Erdogan in Turkey. 

Nice whataboutism though. 

Not seeing the whataboutism.

Whataboutism is when there's calling out of right wing bigotry, and the knee jerk reaction is "but Antifa/the left!"

I don't argue "but Christians!" in response to tarring all of Islam with one brush, but that the problem is NOT Islam but people with a radical agenda using it as an excuse for their actions (which is similar in other religions).

[grumbler]

All religions have silly stuff going on. Stoning for adultery in christianity and judaism for example. It's a series of beliefs created by people having a magical pretend friend telling them stuff, of course it's going to be full och all kinds of weird shit.

Jesus protected a woman who was going to be stoned.  Mohammed told people God said they should kill people who leave Islam.

Mohammed said no such thing (in fact, the Quran is explicit that there cannot be compulsion in religion).  Hundreds of years later, people started claiming that Muhammed said that apostates should be killed, but that's not a fundamental tenet s Islam as expressed in the Quran, and the hadiths regarding it are controversial.

I believe that every modern law criminalizing apostacy is in the Islamic world, but apostacy is not criminalized in all Muslim countries.

[Duque de Bragança]

Around here, the violent anti-semitism, up to murder, and anti-homo attacks are now a province of the al-Quran thumpers, trying to atone for their sins perhaps, while it was previously the far-right.

See also the migration of Jews out the banlieues to the city centres, even those in very conservative catholic neighborhood for the wealthiest, or even Israel for those who cannot.

During the debate around homosexual marriage, even the victim of a violent assault made sure not to mention the religion or ethnicity of the perpetrators while blaming the climate around anti-homosexual marriage (la manif' pour tous), described by the mainstream left-wing media as very conservative/reactionary catholic bourgeois.
The perpetrators were Taieb K. et Abdelmalik M., names untypical of French Catholic grande bourgeoisie.

https://www.dailymotion.com/cdn/manifest/video/xyvsgm.m3u8?sec=yhuF0Hh3rq1P-nB5JntTuXUAweVlrw8kT-94YGx4Ns6wvbU3HU9RrjasjEHZqfE7blH5jYMX8R-TOEm-wBe_Wg&progressive=1

https://www.liberation.fr/societe/2014/06/03/prison-ferme-pour-deux-des-agresseurs-d-un-couple-gay_1032056/

French links only, but the victim was Dutch.


So colour me skeptical. In the US, things may be different, but not in Western Europe, the part with large muslim communities I mean. Obviously, the situation is nowhere near as bad in Portugal.
As for catholicism vs Islam, some Vatican II aggiornamento is sorely needed for Islam, though unlikely to come given how Islam is structured or rather unstructured.
Mainstream Lutheranism does not seem dangerous to me, as well.

[Sheilbh]

It's far from perfect here but I'd probably separate out the UK from that Western Europe description. Things seem particularly bad in France in a way that I just don't recognise in the UK very much.

I think cross-community relations and attitudes are better than they've previously been. As I say there are issues but it's different. I think there is an Anglo-Saxon v Continental Europe element to this. I've mentioned before that things that are mainstream politics in much of Europe such as burka bans or hijab restrictions, or banning halal are very alien in the UK. They are policies that Nigel Farage has said are too far-right.

There are still lots of issues but I think we are more exposed and influenced by American attitudes to this (and posisbly other discourse around minorities and race)?

[Duque de Bragança]

Banning hallal is far from mainstream, not just in France. Nobody cares much about halal slaughtering around here. For some reason, the vegan crusaders carefully avoid any ritual slaughtering criticism, unlike slaughtering in general. Only Slovenia has an outright ritual slaughter ban, with countries in red not even requiring stunning. The others requiring possibly some stunning after the cut.
As a matter of fact, matança do porco in Iberia or France is halal-style.



Accurate enough wiki, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter

As for importing US Identity Politics, no problem in leaving that to the Brits. What Nigel Farage says can vary a lot, depending on necessity and his record on Europeans, namely Central and East, does not make him a reference.

[celedhring]

Burka bans were discussed in the early 2010s over here but that talk has (fortunately) died out, and some low-level bans were eventually struck down by the courts. I really don't feel comfortable with the state telling people what not to wear, as much as I can personally disapprove of the role of the burka/nicab.

[Duque de Bragança]

Burqas are also banned in Morocco and Tunisia.

[Sheilbh]

Burka bans were discussed in the early 2010s over here but that talk has (fortunately) died out, and some low-level bans were eventually struck down by the courts. I really don't feel comfortable with the state telling people what not to wear, as much as I can personally disapprove of the role of the burka/nicab.

Agreed.

But I think if combine Duque's map above and the one in this wiki (which I assume is reasonably accurate):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dress_in_Europe

Almost every one of the EU15 except Portugal, the UK and Ireland have policies directed at Muslims that would, in the politics of the UK be considered far-right and beyond the pale - incidentally that's why I think Farage's take is interesting (he did support a burka ban in the 2000s but doesn't any more) because I think he is very good at identifying the sort of furthest right you can get while retaining some plausible deniability. It's why I'd just want to carve out that the the UK might not be in the same "Western European" boat on this in terms of contrasts with the US.

As I say - we're not perfect but I think it is a distinction.

[Duque de Bragança]

Yeah, and Jean-Marie Le Pen was not against the tchador (Iranian version of hijab) per se, because the greatest danger is the one you cannot see. 

Pourtant, le 10 octobre 2003, lors d'un forum du Front national de la jeunesse, Jean-Marie Le Pen s'était déclaré «ferme partisan du port du tchador dans la rue» parce qu'il «n'y a pas de plus grand danger que ce qu'on ne voit pas».

«Là, au moins, on aura la vision d'un monde qui veut délibérément ne pas nous ressembler. Ce n'est pas des gens qui veulent être des nôtres, se faire oublier en arrivant comme on fait quand on arrive, un peu paumé, dans une réception où on n'a pas été invité», avait-il développé. «Eux, ils arrivent en faisant du bruit et en s'essuyant aux rideaux», avait-il ajouté.

https://www.20minutes.fr/politique/1008377-20120922-interdire-voile-kippa-essentiel-sage-selon-jean-marie-pen

He later changed, à la Farage, claiming it's not essential but wise.

As for Portugal, only Baltics and Poland have a lower percentage of muslims, so this is not really relevant.

[celedhring]

Burka bans were discussed in the early 2010s over here but that talk has (fortunately) died out, and some low-level bans were eventually struck down by the courts. I really don't feel comfortable with the state telling people what not to wear, as much as I can personally disapprove of the role of the burka/nicab.

Agreed.

But I think if combine Duque's map above and the one in this wiki (which I assume is reasonably accurate):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dress_in_Europe

Almost every one of the EU15 except Portugal, the UK and Ireland have policies directed at Muslims that would, in the politics of the UK be considered far-right and beyond the pale - incidentally that's why I think Farage's take is interesting (he did support a burka ban in the 2000s but doesn't any more) because I think he is very good at identifying the sort of furthest right you can get while retaining some plausible deniability. It's why I'd just want to carve out that the the UK might not be in the same "Western European" boat on this in terms of contrasts with the US.

As I say - we're not perfect but I think it is a distinction.

The blurb from Spain is outdated, city-level bans were struck down by the Supreme Court, and the issue has died since. That happened nearly a decade ago so the article doesn't seem very up to date. IIRC schools are allowed to ban it as part of their internal rules but they can't discriminate (i.e., they have to ban any kind of head covering).

Not that we don't have issues, like the rampant mosque NIMBYism, but at least there's no discriminatory statutes in place.