The Atlantic Op Ed: Pandemic reveals US as failed state

[Valmy]

No, the US isn't a failed state. It just seems that way due to the ongoing media hysteria about Donald Trump.

I have not read a single article about Donald Trump in four years. I usually just listen to him and he is pretty hysterical. I guess it is best to hold a weird conglomerate of hundreds of people "the media" responsible for that and not the person at the top? I mean I am supposed to be holding him responsible being the President and all.

I am not even sure what you people want from me, you wanted me to stop listening to the media so I stopped. Donald Trump doesn't look much better when all you listen to is his words.

A similar pandemic outcome under Hillary Clinton wouldn't be seen as that bad by most people here.

We would? So now I have to accept the failures of this President because of some hypothetical situation you dreamed up about how I would respond to hypothetical massive failures by Clinton?

You don't know that at all, none of us do.

Oh? You mean you cannot dream up hypothetical scenarios and then claim you know the exact outcome? Odd since you just did that.

[The Brain]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state

The Fund for Peace characterizes a failed state as having the following characteristics:

• Loss of control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein
• Erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions
• Inability to provide public services
• Inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community

Common characteristics of a failing state include a central government so weak or ineffective that it has an inability to raise taxes or other support, and has little practical control over much of its territory and hence there is a non-provision of public services. When this happens, widespread corruption and criminality, the intervention of state and non-state actors, the appearance of refugees and the involuntary movement of populations, sharp economic decline, and foreign military intervention can occur.

The federal structure of the US makes it fruitful, I think, to look at both individual states and Da Feds. States seem OK to me, but the Feds look increasingly shaky according to these criteria. I don't know if the story about a state putting guards on supplies to keep the Feds from taking them is true, but if it is... Any legitimate authority of the Feds to make decisions is severely dented with an evil retarded clown in the White House (with a fawning Senate). My impression is that states look at solutions beyond the Feds in a way that, while maybe still very limited, is new compared to how things used to be just an administration ago. The last one is showing dramatic change over the past few years, now the US literally gets laughed at on the international stage and its judgment is seriously doubted by other countries; if I had the US over at a party I would seat it at the kids' table and only trust them with easily chewed foods and plastic utensils.

If I see the US failing it is not the entire structure that fails, but rather the present dysfunctional federal structure being replaced or discarded completely. This wouldn't necessarily be extremely dramatic.

[Razgovory]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state

The Fund for Peace characterizes a failed state as having the following characteristics:

   
• Loss of control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein
• Erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions
• Inability to provide public services
• Inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community

Common characteristics of a failing state include a central government so weak or ineffective that it has an inability to raise taxes or other support, and has little practical control over much of its territory and hence there is a non-provision of public services. When this happens, widespread corruption and criminality, the intervention of state and non-state actors, the appearance of refugees and the involuntary movement of populations, sharp economic decline, and foreign military intervention can occur.

This works for me.

Cool.

[garbon]

I think if you take out all the mad tweeting and name calling the response would have been more or less the same.

What support do you have for that claim?

[Valmy]

I think if you take out all the mad tweeting and name calling the response would have been more or less the same.

I find that hard to believe. I would think any responsible US President would have mobilized a large effort to pool resources and efforts to most efficiently manage the shutdown and the economy and had a concise effort at testing and seeking treatments. I mean it is nothing we have not done in crises in the past. Yet the country is chaotic and there is little central leadership. Because the Feds have failed so completely it is a little bit every state for itself. It is kind of inspiring what a few motivated really smart individuals can do under these circumstances but I have a hard time believing this current chaos and power vacuum is normal. That flies in the face of the last century of US history.

I mean granted during the last pandemic our President left town to hang out in France negotiating a treaty we weren't going to ratify so I guess at least Trump is in the country.

[Admiral Yi]

What support do you have for that claim?

The fact that the measures taken in the US were broadly in line with what other countries did (except our stimulus seems to have been much more generous).  That Italian and Spanish style lock downs are the domain of state governments.

[garbon]

What support do you have for that claim?

The fact that the measures taken in the US were broadly in line with what other countries did (except our stimulus seems to have been much more generous).  That Italian and Spanish style lock downs are the domain of state governments.

Can we get specific on the similarities? Feels like a lot can hide behind broad similarities.

[Admiral Yi]

Can we get specific on the similarities? Feels like a lot can hide behind broad similarities.

Get as specific as you want.  But do keep in mind we're comparing to a hypothetical Clinton response.  Are there obvious things Clinton would have done that Trump didn't?

[garbon]

Can we get specific on the similarities? Feels like a lot can hide behind broad similarities.

Get as specific as you want.  But do keep in mind we're comparing to a hypothetical Clinton response.  Are there obvious things Clinton would have done that Trump didn't?

Sorry but I asked first. If you want to say that the US government's response now has been broadly in line with other countries, please provide details for the class supporting your argument.

[Admiral Yi]

Sorry but I asked first. If you want to say that the US government's response now has been broadly in line with other countries, please provide details for the class supporting your argument.

Travel restrictions, recommendations to limit contact and work from home, stimulus money, research on a vaccine, distribution of medical supplies.

[Zoupa]

Can we get specific on the similarities? Feels like a lot can hide behind broad similarities.

Get as specific as you want.  But do keep in mind we're comparing to a hypothetical Clinton response.  Are there obvious things Clinton would have done that Trump didn't?

I dunno, not cancel the pandemic simulation during the transition? Not throw out the pandemic playbook from the previous administration? Not disband the Global Health Security and Biodefense unit — responsible for pandemic preparedness? Not encourage retardedness by proclaiming "FREE TEXAS" or some bullshit? These protests, spurred by the Orange Man, will literally cost lives.

These are just off the top of my head.

Let's not forget the half-dozen idiots who drank bleach or overdosed on hydroxychloroquine, all thanks to your commander in chief.

So yeah. Clinton would have done things differently. Clinton would have saved lives.

[Zoupa]

Oh, and Clinton would have invoked the defense production act or whatever it's called months ago, because she's not a pussy.

[Tamas]

Also I think not having the President throw a daily tantrum over the necessary restrictions might have helped with their efficiency.

[Eddie Teach]

I'm not sure thwarting Darwin should be in Clinton's plus column. 

[jimmy olsen]

Sorry but I asked first. If you want to say that the US government's response now has been broadly in line with other countries, please provide details for the class supporting your argument.

Travel restrictions, recommendations to limit contact and work from home, stimulus money, research on a vaccine, distribution of medical supplies.

That last one would have a huge difference.

Trump has been denying medical supplies to blue states and giving it only to red and swing states. Federal agencies have literally hijacked state purchases and confiscated them. Hell, federal agencies have been confiscated from each other.

And all the while Kushner and his buddies flail around, incompetently grifting on the subject.