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Should Trump be impeached?

Started by merithyn, April 29, 2019, 01:50:49 PM

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Should Trump be impeached?

Yes, before the election
Yes, but only after the election if he's re-elected
No, wait until he's out of office and then indict him
No, he's done nothing worthy of impeachment
Hell if I know

Admiral Yi

29?  I'd read 47 a few weeks before Mueller Day.

Razgovory

Quote from: Oexmelin on May 04, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Impeachment may be a political process, but it should not be about "politics". There is value in the process itself, as a ritual instantiation of the values of the Republic. It's an opportunity to tie actions and ideals together, in an explicit fashion. To presume of its conclusion, and it's outcome, is good lawyerly practice, but it's not the whole of a political process. The calculation should not be whether Trump could be impeached, but whether the process itself can produce a robust discourse of democratic norms. I think it could, and it would be salutary after so much strongman rhetoric about the Presidency, and so much undermining of democratic norms, and this is why I would support a process of impeachment.

Of course, politics will play a role in this. And I think the strategy of it ought to be about the timing, rather than the possibility of winning.


I disagree.  We've had a discussion on norms for the two years, if we force the issue right now we probably aren't going to like the answer we get.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017


crazy canuck

Quote from: Oexmelin on May 04, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Impeachment may be a political process, but it should not be about "politics". There is value in the process itself, as a ritual instantiation of the values of the Republic. It's an opportunity to tie actions and ideals together, in an explicit fashion. To presume of its conclusion, and it's outcome, is good lawyerly practice, but it's not the whole of a political process. The calculation should not be whether Trump could be impeached, but whether the process itself can produce a robust discourse of democratic norms. I think it could, and it would be salutary after so much strongman rhetoric about the Presidency, and so much undermining of democratic norms, and this is why I would support a process of impeachment.

Of course, politics will play a role in this. And I think the strategy of it ought to be about the timing, rather than the possibility of winning.

I agree with your analysis but I don't think the impeachment process would create that kind of discussion.  One need only see what is happening with Barr to see what would happen during an impeachment process.

fromtia

Quote from: mongers on May 04, 2019, 04:11:01 PM

Trump is a token of the spiteful forces at work in the world?

To paraphrase Rogan, the assholes have elected their king.
"Just be nice" - James Dalton, Roadhouse.

Razgovory

Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 04, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Impeachment may be a political process, but it should not be about "politics". There is value in the process itself, as a ritual instantiation of the values of the Republic. It's an opportunity to tie actions and ideals together, in an explicit fashion. To presume of its conclusion, and it's outcome, is good lawyerly practice, but it's not the whole of a political process. The calculation should not be whether Trump could be impeached, but whether the process itself can produce a robust discourse of democratic norms. I think it could, and it would be salutary after so much strongman rhetoric about the Presidency, and so much undermining of democratic norms, and this is why I would support a process of impeachment.

Of course, politics will play a role in this. And I think the strategy of it ought to be about the timing, rather than the possibility of winning.

I agree with your analysis but I don't think the impeachment process would create that kind of discussion.  One need only see what is happening with Barr to see what would happen during an impeachment process.


I think that a discussion on political norms right now would not be what we want as a significant number of people want this to be the political norm.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

crazy canuck

Quote from: Razgovory on May 05, 2019, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 04, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Impeachment may be a political process, but it should not be about "politics". There is value in the process itself, as a ritual instantiation of the values of the Republic. It's an opportunity to tie actions and ideals together, in an explicit fashion. To presume of its conclusion, and it's outcome, is good lawyerly practice, but it's not the whole of a political process. The calculation should not be whether Trump could be impeached, but whether the process itself can produce a robust discourse of democratic norms. I think it could, and it would be salutary after so much strongman rhetoric about the Presidency, and so much undermining of democratic norms, and this is why I would support a process of impeachment.

Of course, politics will play a role in this. And I think the strategy of it ought to be about the timing, rather than the possibility of winning.

I agree with your analysis but I don't think the impeachment process would create that kind of discussion.  One need only see what is happening with Barr to see what would happen during an impeachment process.


I think that a discussion on political norms right now would not be what we want as a significant number of people want this to be the political norm.

Indeed.

mongers

Quote from: fromtia on May 05, 2019, 11:03:08 AM
Quote from: mongers on May 04, 2019, 04:11:01 PM

Trump is a token of the spiteful forces at work in the world?

To paraphrase Rogan, the assholes have elected their king.

:D

That's a good one.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

dps

Quote from: Razgovory on May 05, 2019, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 05, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 04, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Impeachment may be a political process, but it should not be about "politics". There is value in the process itself, as a ritual instantiation of the values of the Republic. It's an opportunity to tie actions and ideals together, in an explicit fashion. To presume of its conclusion, and it's outcome, is good lawyerly practice, but it's not the whole of a political process. The calculation should not be whether Trump could be impeached, but whether the process itself can produce a robust discourse of democratic norms. I think it could, and it would be salutary after so much strongman rhetoric about the Presidency, and so much undermining of democratic norms, and this is why I would support a process of impeachment.

Of course, politics will play a role in this. And I think the strategy of it ought to be about the timing, rather than the possibility of winning.

I agree with your analysis but I don’t think the impeachment process would create that kind of discussion.  One need only see what is happening with Barr to see what would happen during an impeachment process.


I think that a discussion on political norms right now would not be what we want as a significant number of people want this to be the political norm.

I'm not sure pollical norms have ever been exactly what I'd want them to be.  Don't see why that should preclude discussion of the subject.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 05, 2019, 12:33:07 AM
29?  I'd read 47 a few weeks before Mueller Day.

Probably depends on the poll. Sampling and the specific question can make a big difference.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Admiral Yi

Impeach.  Yes. No. Duh.  Pro samples don't miss by 18 points.  That's not sampling error, that's a movement in public opinion.