Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Berkut]

You've a 1600 post thread of reasonable critiques of Musk or a few of his defenders (you chief among them) finding reasons to claim the critiques aren't valid.

You've a 1600 post thread of reasonable critiques of Musk or a few of his defenders (you chief among them) finding reasons to claim the critiques aren't valid.

But again, this is just a straight out lie.

There is a long thread with a lot of critiques, and I have not at all found reasons to claim "they" are not valid, I've pointed out that SOME of them are not valid - like your claim that he called himself an engineer, hence he is lying because he doesn't have an engineering degree. That is simply wrong, as the data has been shown. Lots of people who are engineers don't have engineering degrees. That is not a matter of opinion, you are simply wrong.

And so you cannot stand being wrong, and turn it all personal and nasty.

I am not interested in a debate about Great Man Theory. Your characterization of my views is grossly juvenile strawmanning, and it simply isn't interesting to me. Suffice to say there is plenty of debate about the role of individuals in human society and the impact they have, and there isn't any clear (nor can there be) determinant of their actual impact, whether that be as actual doers, or money managers and capital collectors.

What I do find interesting is how people are so prone to just accepting what is obviously a bad argument, and argument they almost certainly internally know is shitty logic and reasoning, because it supports their cherished conclusions. You keep doing that, and I find it fascinating.

You continually mis-characterize my arguments in ways that we both know you know is total bullshit. You don't believe I believe the things you keep insisting I say anymore then I do, but it advances your cherished conclusion, so you don't care.

This is precisely why people support Trump. They don't care about the facts, or the reality, or making good arguments - they just want someone to tell them what they desperately want to believe is true. I think you are taking it to that next level, where you repeat things you know perfectly well are not true - it becomes this sort of signal to others that your dedication is so complete that you are willing to just repeat the lie even when everyone knows it is a lie. 

You say that your characterization of my views is accurate, even after I explicitly just state outright it is NOT my views. I find that level of dishonestly really interesting. I mean, I am telling you I don't think what you claim I think, you post a bunch of examples, and lie about what I say (quote me saying X, and then say "Berkut says Y"), and insist that I do think what you claim I think, even after I just state outright that I do not think that.

What is your point there? Are you hoping to convince me that I don't actually believe the things I actually believe? Is it just performative for the others, you are virtue signaling your commitment to the cause?

[Berkut]

This has led to enduring myths, some of which you have repeated in this thread. Many casual people think Henry Ford invented the assembly line (or even more inaccurately, the car itself), that Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invented the personal computer, or in the case of Steve Jobs the personal computer and the smartphone.

Fascinating - I have not repeated a single one of those myths. Not one.

Straight out lie, again.

Please, do show where I have claimed any of the following:

• Henry Ford invented the assembly line (or even more inaccurately, the car itself)
• Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invented the personal computer
• Steve Jobs the personal computer and the smartphone.

[alfred russel]

This has led to enduring myths, some of which you have repeated in this thread. Many casual people think Henry Ford invented the assembly line (or even more inaccurately, the car itself), that Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invented the personal computer, or in the case of Steve Jobs the personal computer and the smartphone.

Fascinating - I have not repeated a single one of those myths. Not one.

Straight out lie, again.

Please, do show where I have claimed any of the following:

• Henry Ford invented the assembly line (or even more inaccurately, the car itself)
• Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invented the personal computer
• Steve Jobs the personal computer and the smartphone.

You think that OvB is lying about positions you took to brand you a muskie? Pot, meet kettle. You have no honesty in the way you argue and deserve the treatment returned to you.

[Jacob]

OvB didn't say Berkut holds those positions. He's saying that those positions (about Ford, Gates, Jobs) are as ridiculous as the position he says Berkut has displayed about Musk.

[OttoVonBismarck]

OvB didn't say Berkut holds those positions. He's saying that those positions (about Ford, Gates, Jobs) are as ridiculous as the position he says Berkut has displayed about Musk.

Yep, I never once said Berkut was repeating myths about Ford--this isn't advanced English, since I literally said "some of which" in my post. And that was clear from my text. Berkut is literally just obsessed with being able to cry that he is being attacked unfairly so he is making spurious claims about what I've actually claimed so he can brand them "lies." In my long post directly quoting many of Berkut's posts in this thread, I already quoted the post in which he mentions Gates / Jobs as being inventors, so it isn't necessary for me to repost it. Also--let's not ignore the big picture, the minutiae of what he said or didn't say about various industrialists isn't the thrust of my point, but rather his well documented hagiography (in the long list of quotes) of wealthy men as being genius innovators which is contrary to how things actually work.

I'll note this is famously a strategy Donald Trump also uses extensively--someone says something he doesn't like? Just call it a lie, especially useful when the person is pointing out his own behavior.

[grumbler]

OvB didn't say Berkut holds those positions. He's saying that those positions (about Ford, Gates, Jobs) are as ridiculous as the position he says Berkut has displayed about Musk.

That is correct.  OvB couldn't actually name any of the instances of Berkut repeating enduring myths, so he threw out a red herring about what "many casual people think."  Berkut should have pointed out what a bullshit piece of evidence that was, rather than falling into the trap of thinking OvB was actually making an argument.

[Berkut]

OvB didn't say Berkut holds those positions. He's saying that those positions (about Ford, Gates, Jobs) are as ridiculous as the position he says Berkut has displayed about Musk.

" This has led to enduring myths, some of which you have repeated in this thread."

Which ones of those have I repeated in this thread?

[Berkut]

OvB didn't say Berkut holds those positions. He's saying that those positions (about Ford, Gates, Jobs) are as ridiculous as the position he says Berkut has displayed about Musk.

Yep, I never once said Berkut was repeating myths about Ford--this isn't advanced English, since I literally said "some of which" in my post. 

I am glad you are admitting you lied about what I said, since in this exact sentence, you do in fact claim that you said "some of which". This isn't advanced English - some of which (which is a mealy mouthed, contemptible way of arguing anyway - you are substituting the things I say with things you claim other people say, and then claim they are equivalent - classic red herring) includes at least one. 

So which one - which of the three enduring myths did I "repeat in this thread"?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I've already answered that. For fuck's sake man, take the time to read my posts or don't bother responding.

[Berkut]

I've already answered that. For fuck's sake man, take the time to read my posts or don't bother responding.

You did not answer that, you evaded it because you know you were lying, and I never said any of those things.

I think I will continue to bother responding to your rather amusing lies about what I think. I am learning so much about what I believe!

[DGuller]

Guys, any guesstimates on the ETA of when you will arrive at an agreement?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I've already answered that. For fuck's sake man, take the time to read my posts or don't bother responding.

You did not answer that, you evaded it because you know you were lying, and I never said any of those things.

I think I will continue to bother responding to your rather amusing lies about what I think. I am learning so much about what I believe!

It seems like AR has you pegged, you're a massively dishonest person. You are making claims that I said things I never said, I have actually quoted previously you call Jobs / Gates inventors (in this very thread), and you are muddying the waters by trying to claim that this passage was linking you to specific claims:

This has led to enduring myths, some of which you have repeated in this thread. Many casual people think Henry Ford invented the assembly line (or even more inaccurately, the car itself), that Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invented the personal computer, or in the case of Steve Jobs the personal computer and the smartphone. These myths are being created in real time around Musk and the products of Tesla and SpaceX.

If you even remotely bothered to read my post, you would note that I am saying your attitude about "great man" genius is the sort of attitude that has led to enduring myths about all the feats of great men--I then went on to note specific things that great men are often casually said to have done which they haven't, actually done. I didn't say "Berkut says Henry Ford invented the assembly line", I said "Many people", if I was saying you specifically made that specific claim, I would have written it that way, I did not. You choose to represent it that way because, as AR has adeptly pointed out you are a hilariously dishonest and frankly hateful person who I strongly question ever interacting with again given the extreme intellectual dishonesty being displayed here.

I then in response noted that I have quoted you directly buying into the "great man" mythos around Gates and Jobs (whom you had previously mentioned in this very thread.) You are attempting to deliberately confuse and misstates other people's words, and in the context of a message board I can think of few things more tedious and more openly hostile and dishonest to discussion. You are an absolute scumbag of a human being.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Guys, any guesstimates on the ETA of when you will arrive at an agreement?

Not before Musk has a coherent, actionable, broadly-communicated plan for Twitter's future.

[Berkut]

Yes, I am sure the one who is throwing around the constant ad homs is the victim here.

trying to claim that this passage was linking you to specific claims:

It did link me to specific claims. That is the point. The claims I did make you cannot refute except with vague ad homs, so you claimed I said other things, and didn't figure I would notice that I had not made those claims. This is very dishonest, and you know it - hence your anger now at being called out on it.

You got called out on one of many, many lies you repeated, and now you are trying to weasel out of what you rather clearly said. It's ironic that you are touting having AR on your side, since A) He is hilariously known for being somewhat less then honest, and B) He is actually agreeing with me that you are lying about what I said! Otherwise, his angst about me "doing the same thing" would not make any sense. Of course, I didn't do what you are doing, so he is wrong about that part of it, obviously.

I absolutely read your post. You said

This has led to enduring myths, some of which you have repeated in this thread. Many casual people think Henry Ford invented the assembly line (or even more inaccurately, the car itself), that Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invented the personal computer, or in the case of Steve Jobs the personal computer and the smartphone.

Now, you can latch onto the idea that sentence one had nothing to do with sentences two, and that "some of which you have repeated" is not actually in reference to the very words that you then list. That is...well, a special kind of weaseling. It doesn't actually get you out of being dishonest about what I said, it just makes you even more of a weasel for trying to pretend like words don't mean what they rather obviously mean.

The irony of you claiming I am trying to confuse and misstate is hilarious, since what I am doing is pointing out that you are doing exactly that, and providing very specific examples. I never repeated any of the enduring myths you claimed I repeated.

It is as simple as that, your temper tantrum notwithstanding. I am not the one quoting you, and then turning around and telling everyone else what you think that is not at all what you say. I simply quote your actual words.

[Jacob]

Guys, any guesstimates on the ETA of when you will arrive at an agreement?

Not before Musk has a coherent, actionable, broadly-communicated plan for Twitter's future.

Next week already?