Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

In my opinion, if the EU punishes the UK for leaving then the brexiteers will have been vindicated.

[Tamas]

But from the EU's point of view, if they don't punish the UK, other countries will leave too

[garbon]

But from the EU's point of view, if they don't punish the UK, other countries will leave too

Countries should leave if it doesn't suit their interests.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Surely the hope is that the UK will do badly, as a consequence of Brexit, thus providing a salutary reminder of what the EU is good for?

I appreciate btw, that if the UK restricts free movement then the single market privileges will be withdrawn, that is not a punishment.

[Josquius]

I am happy to report from luxembourg and strassbourg that the union flag still flies in all displays of eu flags

[dps]

But from the EU's point of view, if they don't punish the UK, other countries will leave too

Countries should leave if it doesn't suit their interests.

And if the EU doesn't want countries to leave, they shouldn't have put a procedure to leave on the books.

[Tamas]

But from the EU's point of view, if they don't punish the UK, other countries will leave too

Countries should leave if it doesn't suit their interests.

Short term irritations coupled with irresponsible populism do not a country's interest make

[garbon]

But from the EU's point of view, if they don't punish the UK, other countries will leave too

Countries should leave if it doesn't suit their interests.

Short term irritations coupled with irresponsible populism do not a country's interest make

Then the EU should make a compelling case for why they should want to stay, not bullying them into not leaving.

[Tamas]

Maybe but it is unrealistic to expect the EU organisations to build a structure that is stable and reliable on the long term, while various members states leaving nilly-willy is something that can happen at any given moment.


I have seen it on this forum as well, let alone apparent British public opinion, that this whole ordeal is judged based on what makes sense for the UK. Nobody outside of the UK gives a damn what is good for the UK. If there are common denominators between the British and other EU opinions and interests is to not see their economies suffer because of it.

And I fear all that is highly relative as well. For example, sure, Germany has economic interests in the UK (IIRC a GARGANTUAN 7% of their exports go there), but putting all your chips on that ignores the fact that the EU itself IS the German economy. They will not jeopardise the stability of their Mitteleuropa project just because that 7% might decline to 5%.

And then you have the East Euro countries who are in a very easy position: they can't be seen compromising on the rights of their citizens in the UK (of which there are plenty), and if they take a hard stance they know its the big players who will have the trouble of sorting it out. Worst that can happen to them is they will be bribed by the big EU countries and/or the UK to soften up.

[garbon]

It seems like the EU should be left to die then. You know if no one really wants to be in it.

[Tamas]

It seems like the EU should be left to die then. You know if no one really wants to be in it.

The valid point here, is if political integration is so unpopular, then maybe it should be scaled back.

On the other hand, should a decades-long project be abandoned mid-way because fickle public opinion seems to be turning against it at some places? Don't we -as in pretty much every country- use representative democracies precisely to avoid the whims of the mob causing irreparable damage?


This must be hard to see for An American who came to the UK but there are plenty of reasons to fight for the EU, and it is a perfectly valid point of view of expecting better internal order within the EU, if Brexit proves to be a failure for the UK. I most certainly hope that is not the outcome we are going to see, but to deny that "punishing" the UK for leaving is a perfectly valid strategy (may not be the optimal one, but it is certainly one of the reasonable options at this stage), is to refuse seeing the situation from the other side's point of view.

[The Brain]

Did we get rid of Greece yet?

[garbon]

It seems like the EU should be left to die then. You know if no one really wants to be in it.

The valid point here, is if political integration is so unpopular, then maybe it should be scaled back.

On the other hand, should a decades-long project be abandoned mid-way because fickle public opinion seems to be turning against it at some places? Don't we -as in pretty much every country- use representative democracies precisely to avoid the whims of the mob causing irreparable damage?


This must be hard to see for An American who came to the UK but there are plenty of reasons to fight for the EU, and it is a perfectly valid point of view of expecting better internal order within the EU, if Brexit proves to be a failure for the UK. I most certainly hope that is not the outcome we are going to see, but to deny that "punishing" the UK for leaving is a perfectly valid strategy (may not be the optimal one, but it is certainly one of the reasonable options at this stage), is to refuse seeing the situation from the other side's point of view.

I'm not saying that the EU shouldn't continue to exist nor that I wouldn't be sad at its passing.

However, I think it is a mistake to try to force nations to stay in a union if their governments and people do not will it. You'll build resentment and feed exactly into cries about the lack of democracy in the EU structure.

And you see, I can make statements without even need to resort to blaming your blindness on your nationality.

[The Brain]

However, I think it is a mistake to try to force nations to stay in a union if their governments and people do not will it.

OK. Mew.

[Valmy]

Then the EU should make a compelling case for why they should want to stay, not bullying them into not leaving.

I thought the EU did do that, with all the benefits of membership. But those benefits eventually became assumed and taken for granted so not valued. Also the assumption was that the EU would continue to provide them anyway.

As for the bullying part: sorry this is politics. People get pissed off. The EU is not some paradise of the dispassionate demi-Gods. When you go on a xenophobic rant about how horrible European immigrants are destroying your country thanks to the EU those countries are going to be pissed off and do angry nationalistic shit right back. Imagine that?