Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I think that's why you have Westminster Abbey and I think the choral tradition - basically Elizabeth I liked them and protected them.

It's maybe as much a Vatican II as a CofE thing - and I suppose there's only so many ways you can translate that stuff and it comes from the same tradition but I don't think I'd realised quite how close it was. But I recognised whole chunks of the normal service bits - less so the coronation bit which is clearly separate.

Were there ever political fights over the Coronation and how Catholic v Protestant it was as a service, or if it was just viewed as very much up to the monarch? It feels like it must have been a huge flashpoint in the 17th century.

[Sheilbh]

Love the split screen coverage in Italy, with Berlusconi's message to Forza Italia (by the by, he is deep in the uncanny valley now) and "The Return of the King" at the top

[OttoVonBismarck]

Man, I've always been vaguely positive towards the British monarchy despite thinking it a tad silly. But something about the ornateness, the anachronistic feel of actually seeing the coronation ceremony, I dunno. It just made me feel this institution really doesn't feel "right" for what is supposed to be a modern democratic society.

[Sheilbh]

Taleb put it best: rank without power is ridiculous.

Saw his tweet now.

It is ridiculous - but they've just had the bit with the military doing their three cheers (and wherever a state is doing ceremony, you'll find the military). As with the Queen's funeral I'm struck at just how martial all this is - and watching the Queen's funeral especially it suddenly struck me that all those wide nowhere streets in that area of London are literally designed for troops. It's a parade ground not unlike the way modern Paris is designed to allow the military to quickly suppress a revolt. Rank and ceremony, fancy uniforms, parades, marches etc are often deeply connected with the most blatant physical force power.

Seeing that at the palace, hearing the resounding three cheers of the armed forces, I'm not sure that rank and power going together is necessarily a great idea (seems a little Nietzschean that rank should necessarily follow power).

Even in my ideal republican system I think I'd still want them separated with a largely ceremonial head of state/CinC and actual political power held elsewhere.

Edit: This is the clip of the armed forces three cheers: https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1654832875315789825

[Duque de Bragança]

Obviously never seen a coronation before but I'm genuinely surprised how Catholic this all is.

Obviously never seen a coronation before but I'm genuinely surprised how Catholic this all is.

I mean, I always thought the Anglican church was to merge Catholic pomp with enough Protestant teachings to avoid a civil war (and grant the king those divorces).

High Church Anglican rite is basically (Canada Dry) Catholicism, so it's hardy a surprise. 
Anglo-catholicism goes further. 

[Sheilbh]

Man, I've always been vaguely positive towards the British monarchy despite thinking it a tad silly. But something about the ornateness, the anachronistic feel of actually seeing the coronation ceremony, I dunno. It just made me feel this institution really doesn't feel "right" for what is supposed to be a modern democratic society.

I'm broadly of the view that if the monarchy exists we should do the ceremonies - and there is something remarkable about many of them dating back about 1,000 years on that site, hundreds of years on that chair. The regalia is more modern as it was largely made for Charles II because of...

It is an irony that all of this happens because of public consent. If the public stop tuning in or turning up, they'll stop doing it. Which goes for the monarchy in general. our constitution is not difficult to fiddle with (and republican MPs regularly present motions on abolishing the monarchy) - to change it you just need to win enough seats in an election.

About 20-25% of Brits don't want a monarchy - I don't think we're helped by republican campaign groups or The Guardian. My suspicion is that absent a crisis, republicanism needs to be linked to a positive agenda of what shoud replace monarchy. And I often think about the poll in the 90s, after the death of Diana, when the monarchy was in crisis of who people would like to be head of state if we got rid of the monarchy: the number one choice was Princess Anne (followed by Margaret Thatcher)

Edit: Incidentally I think also British republicans often come across as just disliking ceremonies (and perhaps fun - again The Guardian doesn't always help ) which is against actual republics who often have republican ceremonial (often with the military playing a central role).

Edit: And today's ceremonial is complete (this gives as much "there'll always be an England" vibes as that performance)

ollie cole
@ProducerOllie
Hello from Waterloo where a woman on a hen do has just thrown an inflatable penis into a crowd of members of our armed forces who all cheered.

And with that, the coronation is formalised.

[Tamas]

Man, I've always been vaguely positive towards the British monarchy despite thinking it a tad silly. But something about the ornateness, the anachronistic feel of actually seeing the coronation ceremony, I dunno. It just made me feel this institution really doesn't feel "right" for what is supposed to be a modern democratic society.

Yeah the disconnect between the society depicted/projected in this ceremony and the one I actually live in seems almost complete, with the noted exception of involving other faiths and females, both which I am sure were not medieval traditions.

[HVC]

Obviously never seen a coronation before but I'm genuinely surprised how Catholic this all is.

A catholic leaning King Charles in England? What could possibly go wrong 

[Sheilbh]

A catholic leaning King Charles in England? What could possibly go wrong 

The BBC had a lingering shot of Whitehall from the statue of Charles I (angrily staring down at Parliament and their statue of Cromwell), which feels like an ominous editorial decision (?)

[Duque de Bragança]

Obviously never seen a coronation before but I'm genuinely surprised how Catholic this all is.

A catholic leaning King Charles in England? What could possibly go wrong 

Don't worry, he is not supported by the French.   

[HVC]

Saw some clips. Star of the show was princess Ann's choice of hat.


*edit* also saw this great comment

Penny Mordaunt has now been holding that sword longer than Liz Truss was Prime Minister.

[Sheilbh]

On Truss I also saw this cartoon from a (surprisingly non-problematic) Guardian cartoonist - weirdly done before the coronation, but perfectly predicting her outfit

[Richard Hakluyt]

If the Johnson government hadn't fallen we would have had the treat of seeing Rees-Mogg trying to hold that sword up for hours on end. No doubt he would have fucked it up 

[Sheilbh]

If the Johnson government hadn't fallen we would have had the treat of seeing Rees-Mogg trying to hold that sword up for hours on end. No doubt he would have fucked it up 

Well before him it was Chris Grayling who surely to God could not be allowed near the head of state with a sharp object

Separately I think we had flagged on here the unusually high number of asylum seekers in the UK from Albania and the very gendered rate of success in those claims (something like less than 20% of claims from men were accepted, while over 75% of those from women were).

I saw a report in the Guardian over the weekend that the number of modern slavery referrals received last year have reached a record high of about 5,000 and 1/3 are Albanian making it the largest national group (followed by British nationals and Sudanese nationals). Again it appears that is heavily skewed towards women so my assumption is they are probably being trafficked for the sex industry. Which highlights why it is so dangerous to remove the link of modern slavery reporting and asylum.

[Admiral Yi]

Why would a British national need to claim asylum in Britain?