Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[The Brain]

"Limericks fuel"? Private parts and geography?

[Sheilbh]

If I am given a choice on whether the country's fuel supplies should depend on sentenced criminals, I am opting for "no".

As I say Timpson's have a huge number of ex-prisoners in their workforce - so we already depend on sentenced criminals for the nation's supply of locksmiths.

What other jobs shouldn't ex-prisoners do? I suppose we could just get them to drive the Tescos lorries so only the nation's bottled water suppliers depend on sentenced criminals

Also: if we are entertaining the idea of state-sponsored HGV (and other certificates for fuel transport) training, perhaps non-criminal unemployed should get preferential treatment over criminals.

Doesn't that argument apply to any form of education provided in prison or attempting to rehabilitate people? Because prisoners may have chances at getting a free qualification or education opportunities that as you put it 'non-criminal unemployed' don't have - that's because they're in prison.

On the topic of licences to get to ease the fuel crisis, a Guardian comment:

From a very quick Google search - and this may shock you - it appears that the Guardian comments section might not be the best source on truck driving

There are lots of suppliers offering a 5 day course for under £2k - which is expensive but doesn't necessarily take months and isn't ruinously costly. All of the tests collectively cost about £250-300. Again the suppliers say ADR training and licensing costs about £3-500.

This is expensive but I think it's not wildly inaccessible to people (and I suspect if you didn't have that cash ready you could get a loan for this sort of training - and often employers will pay for it if you work for them for x time). I think that's indicated by the 40,000 waiting list.

The waiting list thing is in two parts from my understanding - there's a lot of people waiting to do their test and there is a real covid effect there because over 30,000 tests were cancelled in 2020 due to covid restrictions/lockdowns etc (similar to normal driving tests). There's also I think about 50,000 people who've passed the test but are waiting for their licence from the DVLA - luckiy the the DVLA are famously efficient

None of this will solve the fuel crisis - but it doesn't really matter. Industry is reporting there's signs demand is starting to return to normal - demand is trending down. At a certain point, as with loo roll, people will feel they have enough. There's only so many vehicles and jerry cans and buckets and water bottles they can fill with fuel. I think seeing it as a fuel crisis is a bit like viewing last spring as a loo roll crisis.

But I think training and increasing the number of people who are qualified and improving pay and conditions is the long-term solution to the HGV driver shortage and supply chain problem - even if it isn't necessarily the response for each flare-up in particular sectors (like this fuel crisis). I'd like government to focus on that longer-term fix in the system rather than on each crisis as they happen. My hopes aren't too high.

[Tamas]

Can we just decouple the wide and far-reaching topic of prisoner rehabilitation from the fuel-delivery crisis and have the moral courage to declare the idea of solving this crisis by quickly employing criminals a bad idea?

[Sheilbh]

Ish

Yeah we can de-couple from this crisis - as I say I don't think it'll solve it. But I still have an issue with positioning/describing prisoners or people who are on probation or doing community service as just criminals. It makes it sound like we're contracting with the mafia. One of the purposes of the entire justice system is to try and get people out of crime (we're bad at this not least because of austerity and Tory/media preference for the punishment side of the justice system - but through training, qualifications etc), so they can move past being treated and perceived as criminals.

I think that is really important and that they may have been criminals in the past but the goal should be that they stop being criminals and that's not possible if we insist on keeping that label on people like an albatross round their neck or a scarlet letter. If we won't let people cease being "criminals", I feel like it's difficult for people to get back into wider society.

But also the actual quote from Raab - to me - seems entirely sensible (and relatively liberal for a Tory Justice Secretary):

"We've been getting prisoners and offenders to do volunteering and unpaid work," Mr Raab told The Spectator, in comments carried by The Times.

"Why not if there are shortages encourage them to do paid work where there's a benefit for the economy, benefit for society?

"If you give people skin in the game, give them something to lose, if you give them some hope, they're much less likely to re-offend."

[HVC]

If you rely on criminals for vital tasks then you incentivize getting more criminals.

[The Brain]

Calling someone a criminal while they are still serving their sentence doesn't sound very scarlet-lettery. If anything the idea of non-criminals serving a sentence is a lot more disturbing.

[Tamas]

I guess my problem is that in my view the prime reason and benefit of criminal punishment is to discourage others from ever committing a crime, rather than rehabilitation of the criminals themselves, although that is obviously a benefit, if achievable.

[Sheilbh]

If you rely on criminals for vital tasks then you incentivize getting more criminals.

But this is exactly the Daily Mail argument that prisoners cushy cells will incentivise crime - it's nonsense.

Low risk prisoners are already allowed to work in the community. If they're able to do this I don't see why you exclude them from higher demand areas of the economy, especially as those are possibly the areas where they're most likely to be able to find a job after their sentence and reduce the risk of future re-offending. The same - and this is more long-term - goes for getting qualifications. If anything shouldn't the prison system focus on qualifications and areas of the economy that are in demand to boost the chance of people getting a job after prison?

[HVC]

No I'm not saying people will become criminals, I'm saying courts will find more criminals. Need 40000 drivers? All of a sudden sentences will become just harsh enough to funnel in more drivers. Like the scandals in the states were judges funneled kids to Juvie for kick backs.

[HVC]

As for jobs, if they wanted to be truck drivers why wouldn't they chose that. They way I'm reading his comment if an accountant gets a DUI instead of getting "normal" community service he's going to get gang pressed into driving goods to the grocery store.

[Sheilbh]

I guess my problem is that in my view the prime reason and benefit of criminal punishment is to discourage others from ever committing a crime, rather than rehabilitation of the criminals themselves, although that is obviously a benefit, if achievable.

Yeah I don't believe in punishment as deterrence at all.

My view is that it serves as punishment for crimes or rehabilitation. Some crimes are of such a magnitude that there should be no option for release - and I sort of feel there are certain criminals so likely to re-offend that they should have a stricter/higher sentence. This is something I've seen come up a lot recently where there have been some pretty horrendous crimes from repeate offenders who had very light sentences which I think is wrong - I don't necessarily support a three strikes approach but, for example there was a case of sixty something rapist in Brixton who'd been convicted repeatedly for sexual assault and rape and had just been released. At a certain point I think the criminal justice should sort of look at the pattern I suppose.

But the other purpose is rehabilitation for lower risk prisoners etc. One of the key issues is people struggle to find work after prison and end up re-offending - falling back into the life they had. I like Timpsons employing ex-prisoners (I think 10% of their workforce are ex-prisoners) -  I think getting into work is key and prison should absolutely try to set people up so they can succeed. One of Gove's big focuses, which I agree with, from when he was Justice Secretary was basic literacy and numeracy because a significant number of prisoners are illiterate. But I also think it's right to focus on the bits of the economy that are in demand and where there could be useful training in prison.

Over 11 million people in the UK have a criminal conviction - about 1/3 of men - and it's overwhelmingly one offence before you're thirty. That doesn't mean they're all still criminals forever - and most obviously just do community service/have a light sentence for a light crime.

[The Brain]

Will more truck drivers choose to work in the UK if they have to compete against cheap convict labor? Is it better for the UK to depend on criminals for their infrastructure than on foreigners? I think crime should be a negative for a government, not a positive.

[Sheilbh]

As for jobs, if they wanted to be truck drivers why wouldn't they chose that. They way I'm reading his comment if an accountant gets a DUI instead of getting "normal" community service he's going to get gang pressed into driving goods to the grocery store.

So there's two sides to this. One is community service which is normally things like painting over graffiti, decorating a community centre, working in a public park etc. You're kind of just given whatever to do your sentence for the number of hours of community service you have (plus, possibly addiction or other treatment). I don't really see that there's an issue with offering people who have a licence and are on community service to basically do that job (but I'd make it community focused - so driving a minibus for care homes/community centre etc). But they'd already need the licence for that to work. And I think there is a case as Raab says for expanding this to paid work.

The other is prisoners. Prisoners are not gang-pressed in the UK and generally aren't allowed to do real work out of prison. They do things like cleaning prison wings etc. The Prison Service is extremely risk averse about allowing prisoners into the community to do work. This has actually been a big campaign for penal reformers in the UK that there are more work opportunities (prisoners have to want to do them/sign up). So the only type of prisoners who can work are those who are assessed as low risk and coming to the end of their sentence, normally in open prisons.

My point is that among the education/qualification options for prisoners as well as GCSEs and A levels and NVQs etc - we should probably offer training in getting an HGV licence. Then also have more job opportunities for prisoners (and they should have the same labour rights as any other worker and have their savings from that job returned to them once they leave prison) including from lorry companies etc as well as local shops, factories and other sectors etc. But in the case of education/qualification and jobs my understanding is prisoners have to choose to do it in the UK - the alternative is the mind-numbing internal work of cleaning prison wings etc. No-one should be forced to work in x sector or whatever else, but this should be an option for people and it's fair to encouage people into work in general for the reasons Raab says.

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally on sentencing - Sarah Everard's murderer got a whole life sentence so will never be eligible for parole, which I think is right. Sentencing remarks here:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Wayne-Couzens-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf

[HVC]

If it's a re-education  program I have no problem with that, but why then mention " offenders to do volunteering and unpaid work" if you plan isn't to make people "volunteer" to drive trucks?

*Edit* My main concern is the moral hazard. If you rely on prisoners/criminals to agree to drive trucks instead on paint walls you'll get a certain percentage that will do so. Which incentivizes  the government to imprison more people. Offering education so that the person can get a job after he's served his sentence is different.