Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Admiral Yi]

Does Scotland have the same restrictions that England does?

Takes backs.  I didn't read your post carefully.

[Sheilbh]

Does Scotland have the same restrictions that England does?

Not exactly but both have a ban on gatherings.

[Jacob]

Tbh I'm not getting the protest.
Horrible murders aren't that uncommon and rarely get so much attention. And it's not like the victim was ignored after prior complaints (I think?).
All seems rather odd.

No?

You think it's weird that women would prefer it if they could walk home without being murdered?

[The Larch]

Priorities.

[Valmy]

Tbh I'm not getting the protest.
Horrible murders aren't that uncommon and rarely get so much attention. And it's not like the victim was ignored after prior complaints (I think?).
All seems rather odd.

No?

You think it's weird that women would prefer it if they could walk home without being murdered?

First Tyr is wrong about horrible murders not being that uncommon. The UK murder rate is one of the lowest in the entire world. Now it sucks it isn't zero but if a Brit can't walk home without getting murdered then nobody should leave their home ever. The UK might have lots of problems for women but there are only a handful safer for a woman to walk home in....without being murdered anyway.

Doesn't mean nothing worth protesting happened in this instance though, the murderer seems like he was enabled despite clear warning signs. And murders should be taken seriously, even if this was the only one to take place all year in the UK.

[Jacob]

I'm not sure I'm getting your point, Valmy...?

[Valmy]

I'm not sure I'm getting your point, Valmy...?

I am jealous is so comparatively safe to walk the streets over there. And it is good that one person being killed can get that much attention, especially when there do seem to be people who did not do enough to ensure it did not happen.

The two are probably connected. If it was actually true that murders were not uncommon then people would probably be too desensitized to care this much.

[garbon]

I'm not sure I'm getting your point, Valmy...?

I think you are making the mistake of assuming he has one.

[grumbler]

I'm not sure I'm getting your point, Valmy...?

I think you are making the mistake of assuming he has one.

I am curious:  do you think that this kind of catty remark adds anything to the discussion, or even the forum?

[Jacob]

I am jealous is so comparatively safe to walk the streets over there. And it is good that one person being killed can get that much attention, especially when there do seem to be people who did not do enough to ensure it did not happen.

The two are probably connected. If it was actually true that murders were not uncommon then people would probably be too desensitized to care this much.

Ah ok. Thanks for clarifying

[Sheilbh]

Priorities.

This was particularly crazy. The vigil last night was in the park where the woman was kidnapped. In response to the police's behaviour there was a far larger protest today in Parliament Square. It wasn't dispersed - either because the police probably realised it wouldn't be a great look or because it was a far bigger crowd.

There were speeches - including from a Labour MP - by the statue of Lloyd George (which is awful and typically ignored). Later on in the evening the police moved in to "protect" the Churchill statue which had hitherto been ignored, and were then surrounded by hundreds of people chanting "protect women not statues".

This is an example of why I think the Met manage to piss off everyone. No-one was interested in the Churchill statue, before the police moved in. But they got bad press in the tabloids after it was graffitied in the BLM protests (again, Lloyd George was ignored). So the Met move in, manage to provoke people to taking an interest in the Churchill statue but just look ridiculous doing it. It's another night where I'm seeing everyone from all strands of opinion unhappy with the Met.

I am jealous is so comparatively safe to walk the streets over there. And it is good that one person being killed can get that much attention, especially when there do seem to be people who did not do enough to ensure it did not happen.

The two are probably connected. If it was actually true that murders were not uncommon then people would probably be too desensitized to care this much.

But the context here isn't murder but violence and abuse towards women. People aren't protesting because the streets are dangerous because of all the murders but because they are unsafe for women. This is an extreme example - but as I say I don't know a woman who doesn't have (for a man) incredibly scary experiences of being followed, or someone wanking at them, or groping on public transport, or worse. It's why the tone of the vigil hasn't been about reclaiming the streets from violence but reclaim the night so women can be as safe as men walking around.

It is something I'm aware of personally so if it's dark and I'm walking in the same direction as a single woman I will normally cross the road - it shouldn't be like that but I'm aware that I'm a man walking behind her and look reasonably fit/strong. It's sad that it's like that but I think it helps put someone at ease - similarly, you know, I will refer to ex-boyfriends early in a conversation with women because it makes me a safer person for them to be with. I think as a gay man - so I've never had a girlfriend - you don't realise how bad and regular it is until you're told, whereas I imagine most straight men will hear about this from their partners. And of course women at the time never know which creepy man following them home/flashing them/groping them is going to be a really dangerous creepy man.

In the context of this case part of the anger is because not only was he a cop but he'd been accused of indecent exposure by another woman four days before the kidnapping and there are reports that hadn't been properly investigated. There are also wider issues around this in the UK at the minute - until last year when a new Domestic Abuse Bill passed (Theresa May's legacy) there'd been a number of cases in courts that acquitted men of murder because of the "rough sex" defence that it was consensual choking gone wrong. There's also the still very, very low rate of prosecution of rape charges.

[Josquius]

How odd. I wonder if the scum bags will try to spin this for their we love statues culture war nonsense?

Tbh I'm not getting the protest.
Horrible murders aren't that uncommon and rarely get so much attention. And it's not like the victim was ignored after prior complaints (I think?).
All seems rather odd.

No?

You think it's weird that women would prefer it if they could walk home without being murdered?

Come on. You know I didn't mean anything like that.
Of course it was horrible what happened and people are right to be upset about it.
But murders aren't a once in a blue moon event. They sadly do happen. And I can't recall many others stirring up a protest, let alone such a huge one as this.
It's interesting that somehow something has been triggered out of this one that led to things boiling over.

[Jacob]

Come on. You know I didn't mean anything like that.
Of course it was horrible what happened and people are right to be upset about it.
But murders aren't a once in a blue moon event. They sadly do happen. And I can't recall many others stirring up a protest, let alone such a huge one as this.
It's interesting that somehow something has been triggered out of this one that led to things boiling over.

You may have a better sense of the murders that happen in the UK than I do, but I was under the impression that people getting murdered while using walking as a method of transit was not that common.

Looking at English + Welsh murder statistics (2018) it seems that more than 80% of female murder victims are killed in in or around a home, with only 17% of them murdered by strangers (though with 25% there are no suspects).

I dunno... why do you think it might have boiled over now?

[Threviel]

I heard that the anger was also based on her doing everything right, calling her boyfriend, noticeable clothes, walking on lighted streets, keys in hand (whatever that's supposed to do) and it still did not help her.

I'll also note that every one of my female friends or girlfriends that I've been close to have told me awful stories. Everything from rape to groping. Almost every one of them has had a horrible event with a man, most of them have been borderline raped or raped. All of them have felt fear and been the target of unwanted attention.

What I, as a young man, didn't earlier realize and what many men don't seem to realize is that there are a lot of predatory or socially inept men out there that won't or can't understand a no and that it often is a dangerous place for women. No wonder they are tired of all that crap. Especially after metoo brought it all up to light. And this poor woman did everything right and still a man got to her, there's nothing they can do to protect themselves.

Having someone going around saying it's no big deal, lots of murders and this overreaction is unwarranted doesn't really help. This event touches on a very deep fear present in every woman, they all have a history of some man doing something and they all feel exposed.

[Richard Hakluyt]

97% of women aged 18-24 in the UK have experienced sexual harassment https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/97-of-women-in-the-uk/105940/

I think that this horrible murder has been the trigger, with the insouciance of the police over the murderer flashing in McDonalds a major contributory factor, but this 97% is the underlying story....this tragedy speaks fairly directly to every woman in the land.