Are date rape drugs an urban myth?

[Barrister]

Yes and no.

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

But alcohol is a drug too.  The idea of a man giving alcohol to a woman, or pouring overly-strong drinks, with an ultimate end of forcing sex when she's unable to consent is distressingly common.

How does that "unable to consent" work with alcohol?  Does having sex with a woman that is above a certain BAC level automatically make you a rapist, absent a notarized statement from earlier that day granting consent for that night?

There's no magic BAC level, but if a woman is unable to consent (not just that her reasoning is impaired, but that she is unable to give consent) then yes, having sex with her makes you a rapist.

What if the man is just as drunk as the woman?

For policy reasons, self-induced intoxication is not a defence to any crime.  So, still a rapist.

I'm giving you the Canadian criminal law here, but I believe it's pretty similar in the other common law jurisdictions.

[The Brain]

Yes and no.

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

But alcohol is a drug too.  The idea of a man giving alcohol to a woman, or pouring overly-strong drinks, with an ultimate end of forcing sex when she's unable to consent is distressingly common.

How does that "unable to consent" work with alcohol?  Does having sex with a woman that is above a certain BAC level automatically make you a rapist, absent a notarized statement from earlier that day granting consent for that night?

There's no magic BAC level, but if a woman is unable to consent (not just that her reasoning is impaired, but that she is unable to give consent) then yes, having sex with her makes you a rapist.

What if the man is just as drunk as the woman?

For policy reasons, self-induced intoxication is not a defence to any crime.  So, still a rapist.

I'm giving you the Canadian criminal law here, but I believe it's pretty similar in the other common law jurisdictions.

So then they're both rapists?

[Eddie Teach]

Whichever one is on top is the rapist, I guess?

[The Brain]

Whichever one is on top is the rapist, I guess?

rapiss

[Razgovory]

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

I thought you were in a college fraternity.

[DGuller]

Whichever one is on top is the rapist, I guess?

I was going to say that. 

[Barrister]

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

I thought you were in a college fraternity.

Yes. And?

[Jaron]

Before I gave up alcohol, I had one experience that really terrified me!

I was relaxing with friends. You know, just doing me.

I think I drank maybe half a bottle of Rum and then at some point in the night I fell asleep. I don't remember anything. And they showed me videos of stuff I don't remember doing.

Only alcohol was involved but given my lack of memory and the insane things I was doing I could see how someone could think they were drugged if they didn't know better.

[PRC]

Before I gave up alcohol, I had one experience that really terrified me!

I was relaxing with friends. You know, just doing me.

I think I drank maybe half a bottle of Rum and then at some point in the night I fell asleep. I don't remember anything. And they showed me videos of stuff I don't remember doing.

Only alcohol was involved but given my lack of memory and the insane things I was doing I could see how someone could think they were drugged if they didn't know better.

Hope this wasn't at your Uncle's house.

[MadImmortalMan]

For policy reasons, self-induced intoxication is not a defence to any crime.  So, still a rapist.

I'm giving you the Canadian criminal law here, but I believe it's pretty similar in the other common law jurisdictions.

Ah. So you can be too drunk to consent to sex, but not too drunk to have liability for the crimes you commit.

Edit: Rephrased, alcohol does not absolve you from responsibility for the crimes you commit, but it can absolve you from responsibility for the sex you have.

[Razgovory]

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

I thought you were in a college fraternity.

Yes. And?

Maybe Canadian fraternities are different.  In Columbia (where MU is) they give out test strips to detect date rape drugs.  It's been a bit of a problem for the Greeks.

[Malthus]

Yes and no.

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

But alcohol is a drug too.  The idea of a man giving alcohol to a woman, or pouring overly-strong drinks, with an ultimate end of forcing sex when she's unable to consent is distressingly common.

Is it true that alcohol is a factor in the majority of violent crimes? I read that somewhere, but it may have been a rhetorical flourish.

Anyway, getting drunk isn't usually what is meant by "date rape drugs" - it's more sneakily putting an unknown-to-the-victim drug in their drink when they aren't looking. I suppose spiking their drink with extra booze would qualify, if unknown to the victim. It is the deliberate deception about being drugged that is key, I think, to how most people understand it - hence the moral panic.

[Malthus]

Maybe Canadian fraternities are different.  In Columbia (where MU is) they give out test strips to detect date rape drugs.  It's been a bit of a problem for the Greeks.

That's the issue. Is it really a problem, or is it a moral panic about a rare occurance?

[Martinus]

Yes and no.

The idea that someone is going to slip a drug (like rohypnol or GHB) into a woman's drink in order to facilitate sexual assault is pretty rare.  I think I've seen one file, ever, where that looked like that was happening.

But alcohol is a drug too.  The idea of a man giving alcohol to a woman, or pouring overly-strong drinks, with an ultimate end of forcing sex when she's unable to consent is distressingly common.

Is it true that alcohol is a factor in the majority of violent crimes? I read that somewhere, but it may have been a rhetorical flourish.

Anyway, getting drunk isn't usually what is meant by "date rape drugs" - it's more sneakily putting an unknown-to-the-victim drug in their drink when they aren't looking. I suppose spiking their drink with extra booze would qualify, if unknown to the victim. It is the deliberate deception about being drugged that is key, I think, to how most people understand it - hence the moral panic.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I think the moral panic about "date rape drugs" is actually doing more harm than good by detracting from the real issue, which is that of consent from inebriated people (mainly women).

[Martinus]

For policy reasons, self-induced intoxication is not a defence to any crime.  So, still a rapist.

I'm giving you the Canadian criminal law here, but I believe it's pretty similar in the other common law jurisdictions.

Same in Napoleonic law jurisdictions, at least in Poland, unless you can prove the so-called "pathological intoxication" (where, without a reasonable way to expect it, you go bonkers after, say, one beer).