Star Wars Discussion Thread contains spoilers (and may contain nuts)

[Josephus]

Yeah, that's kind of how i knew han solo died....it was mostly based on stuff Harrison Ford wasn't saying in interviews

[Valmy]

but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys.  They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf.  There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...

Ok if the security and future of the US depended on us holding a strategic place in Vietnam, that losing it would literally mean the total and absolute destruction of the United States as a political unit, and we had sent our most elite troops to hold it would it be realistic for the Viet Cong to seize it in a direct assault? But the Viet Kong were using assault rifles not sticks and stones and the US Army was not a futuristic space empire.

I mean I was five when I saw the movie and I just found that part confusing. But you put up with it because the much cooler confrontation with the Emperor is going on.

[Barrister]

but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys.  They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf.  There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...

Ok if the security and future of the US depended on us holding a strategic place in Vietnam, that losing it would literally mean the total and absolute destruction of the United States as a political unit, and we had sent our most elite troops to hold it would it be realistic for the Viet Cong to seize it in a direct assault? But the Viet Kong were using assault rifles not sticks and stones and the US Army was not a futuristic space empire.

I mean I was five when I saw the movie and I just found that part confusing. But you put up with it because the much cooler confrontation with the Emperor is going on.

In the long run, of course the Empire would steamroll the Ewoks.  But hubris has always been one of the weaknesses of the Empire.  They didn't even acknowledge the Ewoks could be a threat to them, didn't plan or account for them.  So when the Ewoks did a surprise attack the Empire was caught off guard and the Ewok/Rebel alliance was able to gain a tactical victory on that one occasion.

That singular victory of course went on to defeat the entire Empire due to the actions of the Rebel fleet and the Skywalkers.


Plus, the Ewoks gave the final battle some emotional heft.  The movie had never really introduced us to any of the rebel fighter pilots, so it's hard to get worked up at fleet losses.  But when the Empire is killing all those poor Ewoks, when there's that one scene where one ewok tries to wake up his deceased buddy... that's where the movie shows you the true cost of war.

[Valmy]

As far as I know that was the only Ewok casualty

Anyway as a kid I wanted some badass battles not fuzzy bears throwing stones.

And as for not accounting for the Ewoks well true but they say in the movie that an entire legion of elite Imperial troops were there to stop just a handful of Rebel commandos. That should have accounted for any unforseen issues. But granted I don't know how big a legion is.

[Syt]

Maybe because I remember seeing the movie as a kid in the theatre, but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys.  They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf.  There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...

It was one of the points Lucas wanted to make. Originally he wanted a climax with tribal Wookiees (this has been picked up in the comic that was released a few years ago based on an early draft of the movie), but for the original movie he had to drop the idea and went with only one Wookiee instead.

By ROTJ Chewie was established as tech savvy, so he had to drop the Wookiee climax and instead switched the syllables around to Ewok and made them miniature Wookiees instead.

[Valmy]

It was one of the points Lucas wanted to make. Originally he wanted a climax with tribal Wookiees (this has been picked up in the comic that was released a few years ago based on an early draft of the movie), but for the original movie he had to drop the idea and went with only one Wookiee instead.

By ROTJ Chewie was established as tech savvy, so he had to drop the Wookiee climax and instead switched the syllables around to Ewok and made them miniature Wookiees instead.

Well he did a bad job by proclaiming that force was 'an entire legion of my best troops'. So the message is that the Empire sucks ass. If they had put a small skeleton force because they did not take the Ewoks seriously then hey that message would have been delivered. It would be like expecting us to think the message of Napoleon sending his Imperial Guard against you is because he was too arrogant to take you seriously.

But I guess that is the artistry of Lukas. Like having a war between robots and clones draw our attention to our attitude towards the disposability of soldiers...by making them actually disposable. It really makes you think.

[Malthus]

I gotta say - I LIKE the Ewoks!

Maybe because I remember seeing the movie as a kid in the theatre, but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys.  They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf.  There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...

All I can say is, you are less critical than a trio of pre-teen boys. 

Technologically inferior troops can of course win - but not by head-on confrontation. They win by wearing their enemies down over a long period. Directly attacking a superior enemy may create a moral/propaganda win, but usually not a military one (see "Tet Offensive").

Some teddy bears ambushing and overwhelming a small patrol of unwary storm troopers? Sure, I could buy that. A tribe of teddy bears taking on a "legion" of battle-ready troops, who needed to do nothing but defend a single position for a few minutes to win? Seems rather unlikely. Pushes the suspension of disbelief too hard - worse, makes the "legion" look like utter pushovers.

[Syt]

I think a post-movie explanation was that the Ewoks created a diversion to pull as many troopers from the bunker as possible to allow the Rebels to do their thing.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I wonder what led to Finn being moved from sanitation into villager slaughter; strikes me that would be pretty high up on the ranking of storm trooper jobs, whilst sanitation. ....less so

it's sanitation, just of a different kind.

[Barrister]

All I can say is, you are less critical than a trio of pre-teen boys. 

Technologically inferior troops can of course win - but not by head-on confrontation. They win by wearing their enemies down over a long period. Directly attacking a superior enemy may create a moral/propaganda win, but usually not a military one (see "Tet Offensive").

Some teddy bears ambushing and overwhelming a small patrol of unwary storm troopers? Sure, I could buy that. A tribe of teddy bears taking on a "legion" of battle-ready troops, who needed to do nothing but defend a single position for a few minutes to win? Seems rather unlikely. Pushes the suspension of disbelief too hard - worse, makes the "legion" look like utter pushovers.

The Tet Offensive is probably a good example.

Yes, the VC/NVA were defeated - but in the initial assault the US/South Vietnamese troops were beaten back in several locations.  The element of surprise can be powerful.

And stormtroopers have always looked like pushovers.  I commented earlier that the opening scenes of TFA was the first time we've ever seen them look competent or menacing (though I was reminded of the off-camera murder of Luke's aunt and uncle, and of the jawas).

[Valmy]

And stormtroopers have always looked like pushovers.

Untrue. They always won except when fighting the heroes (and even then the good guys were usually running away and the Stormtroopers just inexplicably failed to hit them. They won a big battle rather easily at the beginning of both of the first two movies.

[Malthus]

The Tet Offensive is probably a good example.

Yes, the VC/NVA were defeated - but in the initial assault the US/South Vietnamese troops were beaten back in several locations.  The element of surprise can be powerful.

And stormtroopers have always looked like pushovers.  I commented earlier that the opening scenes of TFA was the first time we've ever seen them look competent or menacing (though I was reminded of the off-camera murder of Luke's aunt and uncle, and of the jawas).

There's looking incompetent, and then there's being beaten up by teddy bears. 

That's a problem, visually. Maybe even moreso for the pre-teen crowd. Adults may rationalize 'well, sure they look sorta like teddy bears, but really they are ferocious savages, and so presumably cunning and violent', but what it looks like on screen is a bunch of elite soldiers being beaten up by teddy bears. That's something a kid can look at and go 'that shit just wouldn't happen'. 

[Valmy]

Yeah as a five year old I found it silly. Also that is not what I wanted from Star Wars. I always played that I was Luke Skywalker battling Darth Vader and piloting my star fighter not a teddy bear. And as I got older I cynically took it as a way to market toys to kids. Now that may have played a role, but now I actually do think it is Lukas bungling imagery. He clearly wanted a technologically inferior people to be the difference but the way he did it was incompetent, that could have worked if done well.

[Valmy]

Ok so possible Knights of the Old Republic inspired stuff in the movies that I thought of:

1. Kylo Ren's mask looks like Revan's.

2. The Star Map quest leading to the Soul Forge and the Star Map leading to Luke Skywalker. Plus I guess looking for the Jedi Master in hiding just like KOTOR II.

3. The Chrome Storm Trooper is kind of like the Chrome Sith troopers from KOTOR. Always such nice shiny targets.

4. The ultimate weapon drains power from a star just like the Star Forge.

That's all I got. Maybe something was inspired by KOTOR but nothing direct that gives one hope that the game is considered to be in the same universe.

[Syt]

Visual Dictionary (canon) has Rakata Prime on a map and refers to "The Scourge of Malachor" thousands of years ago.

In the Clone Wars cartoon, there's two bounty hunters from Manaan. There's a few episodes set on Onderon. Taris is mentioned in a canon novel.