Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Oexmelin]

Ok let's not mix things here. Just because I think a French chef can cook traditional vietnamese dishes does not mean I think we should embrace racist and national stereotypes.

That is not what I am saying at all. You were making a difference between a gesture that was deliberately meant as political, and one which you considered, was not. What I am pointing out is that a) part of the cultural appropriation "movement" is to say that some things that are often not considered as political by a powerful majority, are, in fact carrying strong political meaning. b) their effort is precisely to bring what they consider their latent political meaning to the consciousness of that powerful majority, using their own terms. Or, if you prefer, you can argue that this is *making* things political, rather than simply unveiling their latent political meaning.

I simply used the simple example that you provided about dressing up to underline that, even in the case of white Americans, the stereotyping which is reinforced by pop culture (i.e, Western cowboys) can have subtle political ramifications in serious matters.

In any case, I think discussions of cultural appropriation, whether they are considered founded or not, should back away from a sort of defensive reaction against the idea that one - me, or you - is fundamentally racist when one, say, dresses up as a sexy pocahontas or cooks burritos. It is about systemic effects, not about intent.

[Oexmelin]

For example: in the article posted earlier by Garbon, the example was given (with approval) of the following as an example of "cultural appropriation": an (English) cook publishing a cookbook, which included a Nigerian dish.

Cooking is one of those things frequently evoked to tar the whole thing, as Jacob pointed out. And, as Garbon also pointed out, it is common in all sorts of political causes to mistake the visible thing - a dish - for what is actually being argued, even by militants.

The people I know who consider the whole cultural appropriation thing seriously, with regards to food, make very similar arguments to those made, say, in theater, when hiring white people to play Indians, Arabs, etc. It takes places in a context of celebrity chefs, and restaurants, and TV personalities - not my kitchen, when I clumsily attempt to make a chili. It takes place in an economy where chefs claim fame, and fortune, and aggregate cultural meaning to themselves, while, say, underpaid Mexican cooks reap very little benefit. In other words, when people claim a label, such as "traditional Nigerian", what are they trying to do? Presumably, there is an appeal - but has that celebrity chef, actually consulted a Nigerian person, or even a Nigerian chef? Has that person been given credit? The point is not to get a license from some non-existant  cultural authority - but rather, at least, to give due, and share benefits. And, in fact, a colleague of mine who does go on about cultural appropriation much more seriously than I do (and who is a much finer palate than I am), celebrates a bunch of white Texans who apparently *get* Mexican cuisine, and render unto Julio Caesar and whatnot, much better than many actual Mexican chefs.

[HVC]

how many years of intermixing until non ethnic minority is entitled to partake in a culture? Mexican cuisine has been a part of the south for over a century. Can valmy create a Mexican cook book (or tex-mex faux Mexican ) without it being appropriation since he grew up surrounded by the cuisine? or as the lily white man that he is can it never be appropriate since he's not ethnically a Mexican? Going further tempura was originally Portuguese. Is japan culturally appropriating it and thus is not entitled to this cuisine anymore? or conversely, can I open up a tempura restaurant and safely re-appropriate my culture?

Going away from the food aspect, in the north American context of the mixing bowl (or multi-culturalism for my fellow canucks ), the increased push for ethnic segregation makes no sense to me.  In an age of increased global communication we should be absorbing more of each other best cultural traits, not activily discouragining it. maybe because I lived most of my life in Toronto with a diverse group of friends and family I don't see cultural assimilation as a bad thing. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just can't get my head around the objection to it. like I mentioned in a previous post to me the intent of the action is what matters to me. is someone being derisive or negative? if not I just can't see the harm.

[Tonitrus]

Of course all three countries export those cultures for profit and entertainment. They made the Bollywood tropes and stereotypes themselves and gleefully sent them abroad.

Yeah, I think that's a decent place to draw the line - if you want to dress up as an anime character or a k-pop star or a bollywood character that's pretty legit, but "sexy geisha" or "korean grocery store owner" or "generic guru" are not.

But what about non-sexy, legitimate cultural outfits worn for seemingly legitimate purposes?  For example, a white/western woman/man who lives in Japan, and buys a kimono/(whatever male equivalent is) for wear to a culturally appropriate event where such traditional dress is worn (granted, I have no idea what that would be).  A sign of respect for the culture one is living in, or an automatic mocking of it?  Or, for example, when Bush/Obama have worn traditional Chinese/Asian outfits during diplomatic visits?

I think for some, the line would be drawn at Halloween costumes being the only thing that mocks, or "appropriates"...but for many (or at least those who vocally complain), even when trying to show respect or admiration for the culture, it is automatically mocking.  It is more the latter that I disagree with.

[Jacob]

But what about non-sexy, legitimate cultural outfits worn for seemingly legitimate purposes?  For example, a white/western woman/man who lives in Japan, and buys a kimono/(whatever male equivalent is) for wear to a culturally appropriate event where such traditional dress is worn (granted, I have no idea what that would be).  A sign of respect for the culture one is living in, or an automatic mocking of it?  Or, for example, when Bush/Obama have worn traditional Chinese/Asian outfits during diplomatic visits?

Yeah from where I'm sitting, that's totally appropriate.

I think for some, the line would be drawn at Halloween costumes being the only thing that mocks, or "appropriates"...but for many (or at least those who vocally complain), even when trying to show respect or admiration for the culture, it is automatically mocking.  It is more the latter that I disagree with.

Yeah, I think some of this stuff shades into the ridiculous but I'm willing to at least hear the argument.

I mean, to go back to your initial question, appreciating the traditional arts and crafts from a particular culture and supporting the artists by buying their work - IMO super legit and laudable - not cultural appropriation. Using that same art in official iconography in consultation with artists practicing in their tradition and with some attempt at consultation - respectful and positive and not cultural appropriation because there's a partnership involved. Some designer finding some designs from a culture that's not their own, plagiarizing them and slapping them on some clothes and selling them because they're exotic and people like that - cultural appropriation and potentially problematic.

EDIT: that is, of course, just my perspective.

[Syt]

You know what we should keep talking about? Benghazi!

[CountDeMoney]

He looks so peaceful. 

[Hamilcar]

I don't think so, and besides it was posted by a Yank expat, in jest, though the original post wasn't IIRC.

So the joke is that people are silly to suggest that you don't dress up as caricatures of Native people?

Is it ok for Native peoples to dress up as Europeans? 

[HVC]

[Duque de Bragança]

This one is actually funny. 
Didn't have to look far for this one.

[grumbler]

[Snip image]


This one is actually funny. 
Didn't have to look far for this one.

I like this one! 

[Tonitrus]

Some designer finding some designs from a culture that's not their own, plagiarizing them and slapping them on some clothes and selling them because they're exotic and people like that - cultural appropriation and potentially problematic.

EDIT: that is, of course, just my perspective.

This is where it might get iffy, I think.

As I said, I love the artistic style of the Pacific Northwest native tribes (Tlingit, Haida, etc...another reason I need to visit Vancouver more  ).  If I, as a super-white guy, decided I wanted to learn totem pole carving (something I've strongly considered looking into)..became rather adept at it, and started to carve my own, in the same style...am I now an evil cultural appropriator?  So long as I am not trying to pass it off as "authentic native art"?

[Zoupa]

I think it's fine if you don't try to sell it maybe?

That's more celebration of a culture than what is (I think) commonly meant under cultural appropriation, which is something more or less denigrating or disrespectful.

My 0.02$

[Grinning_Colossus]

Trying to sell it as an authentic Native American totem pole would be iffy, but it seems fine otherwise. The diffusion of artistic styles is entirely benign.

[Valmy]

That's more celebration of a culture than what is (I think) commonly meant under cultural appropriation, which is something more or less denigrating or disrespectful.

My 0.02$

Yes. But you can just call something denigrating or disrespectful racist. No need for a new concept.