The Off Topic Topic

[garbon]

That's an odd stance from you given you and Tyr were arguing that consumers are not smart enough to recall labels and need PDOs as a crutch.

Nobody said anything about intelligence.
I'm sure if I was interested in wine and drank it a lot I'd be fully capable of remembering which I like.
But I don't so that isn't knowledge that goes into my long term memory.
Champagne =sparkly French stuff that I'm not a fan of, is enough for me.

But that's not what champagne is as far as legal naming rules is concerned which at most basic level requires that it is only for sparkling wine produced in Champagne. There is sparkling wine from France that is not champagne.

If anything your example highlights why genericizing the terms would be okay as consumers are already doing so.

[garbon]

Maybe there would not have been a loss in quality, I don't know on what grounds that particular PDO is restricted the way it is.

I mean, the whole idea is that they're based on geographic areas. Which makes some amount of sense, as the products involve natural characteristics of sorts, like the particular qualities of soil or water in a given region.
They have to have boundaries somewhere, and you inevitably get silly situations like this.

But that's the thing, how 'scientific' is it vs. good advocacy as apparently in that situation wasn't too hard for them to get the PDO withdrawn. It feels to me like the PDOs are more reflective of which products have strong advocates/cabals.

It's not scientific at all so it will get messy, some PDOs more than others. 

Also, I don't see how you are guaranteed a premium if your product is indistinguishable from similar non-PDO products, and consumers are smart enough to not be fooled by a label, as you say they are.

That's an odd stance from you given you and Tyr were arguing that consumers are not smart enough to recall labels and need PDOs as a crutch.

It is not my stance, I'm just not following your argument.

I also didn't claim consumers were not smart enough, I was merely talking about myself. 

My stance is that the main beneficiaries of these PDOs are the producers who effectively as a guild of sorts on which products get the prestige of using the name. The benefits to the consumers are minimal at best.

[garbon]

Ultimately, the move to not respect PDO designation is an attempt for certain non-PDO producers to ride on the coat tails and cash in on the reputation and marketing of PDO producers. Whether you think the reputation is merited or not doesn't really change that fact.

Actually it does. For instance Cheddar is not allowed to have a PDO because it has been decided that cheddar is already such a generic term that no specific designation can be made unless a very specific type of cheddar like 'West Country farmhouse Cheddar cheese'.

Meanwhile Feta is allowed a PDO even though there isn't anyone (beyond package labelling) who says actually I'll have some of that greek style salad cheese.

An anti-PDO stance would be that no, you don't get to take general terms that people use and create your own restrictions on who is allowed to use that term just like you can't restrict the use of term cheddar.

[Barrister]

I don't know where you draw the line, but "Feta" as a PDO is ridiculous.  It's a style of cheese that has nothing to do with the "terroire" of Greece.

[Maladict]

I don't know where you draw the line, but "Feta" as a PDO is ridiculous.  It's a style of cheese that has nothing to do with the "terroire" of Greece.

The Greeks seem to disagree, they exclude some of their own regions too.

[Jacob]

Actually it does. For instance Cheddar is not allowed to have a PDO because it has been decided that cheddar is already such a generic term that no specific designation can be made unless a very specific type of cheddar like 'West Country farmhouse Cheddar cheese'.

Meanwhile Feta is allowed a PDO even though there isn't anyone (beyond package labelling) who says actually I'll have some of that greek style salad cheese.

An anti-PDO stance would be that no, you don't get to take general terms that people use and create your own restrictions on who is allowed to use that term just like you can't restrict the use of term cheddar.

... doesn't change the fact that the generic producers of cheddar are cashing in on the reputation created by the original production of cheddar, nor that those who want to produce generic feta-like cheese and call it feta want to cash in on the reputation of the producers.

[garbon]

Actually it does. For instance Cheddar is not allowed to have a PDO because it has been decided that cheddar is already such a generic term that no specific designation can be made unless a very specific type of cheddar like 'West Country farmhouse Cheddar cheese'.

Meanwhile Feta is allowed a PDO even though there isn't anyone (beyond package labelling) who says actually I'll have some of that greek style salad cheese.

An anti-PDO stance would be that no, you don't get to take general terms that people use and create your own restrictions on who is allowed to use that term just like you can't restrict the use of term cheddar.

... doesn't change the fact that the generic producers of cheddar are cashing in on the reputation created by the original production of cheddar, nor that those who want to produce generic feta-like cheese and call it feta want to cash in on the reputation of the producers.

What is the 'original' production of cheddar and who even is aware of it?  This sort of originator + reputation chasing strikes me as silly.

[Jacob]

What is the 'original' production of cheddar and who even is aware of it?  This sort of originator + reputation chasing strikes me as silly.

You can read about it on wikipedia, if you're so inclined.

But yeah, you're correct. Harding standardized cheddar cheese production and introduced it to other places in the world beyond the village of Cheddar where the cheese originated. So in this case it makes sense that there's no PDO for cheddar

[Barrister]

Actually it does. For instance Cheddar is not allowed to have a PDO because it has been decided that cheddar is already such a generic term that no specific designation can be made unless a very specific type of cheddar like 'West Country farmhouse Cheddar cheese'.

Meanwhile Feta is allowed a PDO even though there isn't anyone (beyond package labelling) who says actually I'll have some of that greek style salad cheese.

An anti-PDO stance would be that no, you don't get to take general terms that people use and create your own restrictions on who is allowed to use that term just like you can't restrict the use of term cheddar.

... doesn't change the fact that the generic producers of cheddar are cashing in on the reputation created by the original production of cheddar, nor that those who want to produce generic feta-like cheese and call it feta want to cash in on the reputation of the producers.

Again - what original producers of feta?  Feta is a brined cheese, typically made from sheep's milk (we can debate whether "feta" made from cow's milk counts as feta another day).  It originated 6,000 years ago in the eastern Mediterranean.

Although at least in Canada we're allowed to produce and sell "feta-style" cheeses, and not have to rely on something ridiculous like "Greek-style salad cheese".

[The Brain]

PDO is very silly and exists to protect producers who cannot hack it in the marketplace, but it's not extremely harmful and seems a fairly cheap way to pander to specific regions.

[Barrister]

PDO is very silly and exists to protect producers who cannot hack it in the marketplace, but it's not extremely harmful and seems a fairly cheap way to pander to specific regions.

It would be one thing if they wanted to make a PDO for "Greek Feta" - no other feta could claim any connection to Greece.

But it's another when they try and claim ownership over the generic term itself.

[Sheilbh]

What is the 'original' production of cheddar and who even is aware of it?  This sort of originator + reputation chasing strikes me as silly.

It's literally called cheddar gorge

And the bastardisation of cheddar around the world is a very good example of why I think PDOs are worthwhile.

To me they're a sort of community IP right. It is normally something that's part of the intangible heritage of that place and community (and I think place matters) and they get to benefit from it becoming popular and industrialised. But also there are normally quite strict rules around the production - which is open so anyone can make it in accordance with the rules. So with feta, let's say, the types of milk you can use and how you produce it - any farm in the area can do that, it isn't protected to the actual existing producers.

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

[Barrister]

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

But typically, IP rights expire over time.

[Jacob]

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

But typically, IP rights expire over time.

Not if Disney can help it.

[Barrister]

I think there's actually probably useful way of thinking about other IP rights in that.

But typically, IP rights expire over time.

Not if Disney can help it.

That's actually no longer true.

There was substantial opposition to another extension of copyright, so the major powers that be didn't even bother to try to fight to extend copyright.  Steamboat Willie (and therefore the earliest incarnation of Mickey Mouse) hits the public domain in 2024.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/a-whole-years-worth-of-works-just-fell-into-the-public-domain/