The Off Topic Topic

[Martinus]

I think the world is going to hell in the handbasket.

[Zanza]

At least it is not as bad as the European Union, which according to Boris Johnson is literally Hitler.

[Capetan Mihali]

You remind me of a friend of mine, who was a somewhat rabid Trotskyite. She told me one day something like "you will never believe it, but I was once a really devout Catholic: I said my rosary every day, went to confession regularly, and parroted the official Vatican line on everything. Can you imagine that? And then one day I studied things, and came to a few realizations - and now look at how far from Catholicism I've gone: I think all religion is bunk, Catholicism included".

I said something non-committal, but I was thinking "you haven't really changed that much, you have just traded one type of absolute certainty for another". 

To my mind, that's why the conversation seems so one-sided: it isn't because you are sympathetic to Palestinians - it is because you are so absolutely one-sidedly certain you are right, you aren't willing to actually examine or discuss evidence; you only post slanted accounts, cannot engage in factual refutations or argument. You sound more like a convert to a cause than a debater.

Unsurprisingly, you've told this story before.

First, it's outrageous to accuse me of not being sympathetic to the Palestinians and just using their cause to  bolster my own self-righteousness.  It couldn't be further from the truth.  The cultural boycott, i.e. not inviting Israeli academics to conferences and such, is big within the BDS movement.  But instead of jumping on the bandwagon as I ought to do in your fantasy of me, my initial response was that it was a bad idea.  I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, what it could achieve, what damage it could do, and I still have reservations.   

Secondly, I put my money and time where my mouth is.  When I was making $25/hour as a fresh public defender, I still had the state donate 10% of my pre-tax income to the American Near East Refugee Association.  I drink liters of seltzer a day, but I thew my Sodastream in the trash, which was heartbreaking since I've used seltzer machines sincee 1999.. 

Did you read anything I wrote?  I didn't trade one dogma for another.  I underwent a gradual shift in opinion over the course of 15 years as I observed Israel's conduct.

If you're going to tell me who I am, why don't I take the opportunity to tell you who you are, as it's only fair platy.  You are a smug, comfortable citizen of the West who can reduce Israeli checkpoints to "long lines" like going through security.  You either don't have a clue about the degradation and humiiation Palestinians are subject to (setting aside the periodic killing and destruction by air) in comparinson to Israelis, or else you have rationalized it away. 

Sure, you're comfortable making a couple criticisms of Israel here and there, but ultimately you are prepared to endorse behvavior on the part of Israel that you would find scandalous were it a different country, e.g. the ethnic cleansing of the West Banks via settlements that monopolize the available water and are protected at great expense IDF i.e. Israel i.e. my tax dollar. 

Your attachment to the concept of Israel as a Jewish state is so profound that you want them to be accepted into the community of Western nations while they engage in behavior that no other Western does and only intend to do more, pointedly ignoring all the pleas that they do otherwise from other Western nation, the UN, and even their generous benefactor the USz. 

What I won't do is speculate on why exactly you maintain this fidelity to Israel.

[The Brain]

What I won't do is speculate on why exactly you maintain this fidelity to Israel.

Oooh! Ooh! I know! I know!

[Eddie Teach]

Languish, for all of its diversity, has a fairly specific mindset when it comes to politics.

You take a bunch of white guys from the West, chase off the ones who dislike America and those who let their religion guide their politics, and this is what you get. A lot of nicer Berkuts, Grumblers, and CDMs.

[Malthus]

Unsurprisingly, you've told this story before.

First, it's outrageous to accuse me of not being sympathetic to the Palestinians and just using their cause to  bolster my own self-righteousness.  It couldn't be further from the truth.  The cultural boycott, i.e. not inviting Israeli academics to conferences and such, is big within the BDS movement.  But instead of jumping on the bandwagon as I ought to do in your fantasy of me, my initial response was that it was a bad idea.  I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, what it could achieve, what damage it could do, and I still have reservations.   

I haven't accused you of using their cause to bolster your own self-righteousness.  I've said you were a convert to a cause. I assume you are quite sincere in that cause. 

Secondly, I put my money and time where my mouth is.  When I was making $25/hour as a fresh public defender, I still had the state donate 10% of my pre-tax income to the American Near East Refugee Association.  I drink liters of seltzer a day, but I thew my Sodastream in the trash, which was heartbreaking since I've used seltzer machines sincee 1999.. 

Again, I haven't questioned your sincerity in your cause.

My only point is that you come across as a person with a cause. Not, I think, something you yourself would deny.

What you are not seeing is that others cannot be convinced by simply broadcasting your sincerity. Rather, they need stuff like facts and arguments, and that is your weak spot: your presentation  of the facts is hilariously, absurdly one-sided, which anyone with the slightest knowledge of the history of the region can quickly discern.

Did you read anything I wrote?  I didn't trade one dogma for another.  I underwent a gradual shift in opinion over the course of 15 years as I observed Israel's conduct.

The issue isn't how rapidly you switched from one to the other, but the fact that you switched. It may not have been a "road to Damascus" insta-conversion, but that's not the point.

If you're going to tell me who I am, why don't I take the opportunity to tell you who you are, as it's only fair platy.  You are a smug, comfortable citizen of the West who can reduce Israeli checkpoints to "long lines" like going through security.  You either don't have a clue about the degradation and humiiation Palestinians are subject to (setting aside the periodic killing and destruction by air) in comparinson to Israelis, or else you have rationalized it away. 

Sure, you're comfortable making a couple criticisms of Israel here and there, but ultimately you are prepared to endorse behvavior on the part of Israel that you would find scandalous were it a different country, e.g. the ethnic cleansing of the West Banks via settlements that monopolize the available water and are protected at great expense IDF i.e. Israel i.e. my tax dollar. 

Your attachment to the concept of Israel as a Jewish state is so profound that you want them to be accepted into the community of Western nations while they engage in behavior that no other Western does and only intend to do more, pointedly ignoring all the pleas that they do otherwise from other Western nation, the UN, and even their generous benefactor the USz. 

What I won't do is speculate on why exactly you maintain this fidelity to Israel.

Think what you want. Personally, I think it is totally possible to, at one and the same time, criticize Israeli policies - such as those towards "settlers", racism in Israeli local land planning, etc. - while seeing these things in perspective. After all, my own country does and has done all sorts of scandalous things towards its own Native population - in some cases far worse that anything Israel has done (look up "residential schools" if you don't believe me) - yet that doesn't affect my judgment that Canada is, over all, a pretty acceptable Western country.

[The Minsky Moment]

I drink liters of seltzer a day, but I thew my Sodastream in the trash, which was heartbreaking since I've used seltzer machines sincee 1999.. 

And thereby helped throw hundreds of Palestinians out of work.

[Martinus]

I gotta say I do agree with Mihali in his critique of Israel as the "Jewish state" especially when you consider the religious component. Israel gets away with it only because everybody else in the region is much worse. The pragmatist in me says it is fine, the idealist disagrees - both are valid positions to hold.

[Malthus]

I gotta say I do agree with Mihali in his critique of Israel as the "Jewish state" especially when you consider the religious component. Israel gets away with it only because everybody else in the region is much worse. The pragmatist in me says it is fine, the idealist disagrees - both are valid positions to hold.

Most Israelis I know are utterly against the religious types who often make life difficult there. The religious types have excessive power because of Israel's wacky electoral system - most Israelis resent that as much as you would.

The "Jewish state" thing means basically the same thing as Turkey being a "Turkish state", Germany being a "German state" or Poland being a "Polish state" - it's basic ethno-nationalism, no different from other states founded on ethno-nationalist principles. The founders of the "Jewish state" were mostly socialist Atheists, many from your part of the world originally. 

I would hope that as history progresses ethno-nationalism can be left behind, but unfortunately that requires everyone else to leave it behind, too - the whole point of having a "Jewish state" was that others would not leave ethno-nationalism behind and, historically, refused to consider Jews to be "real" Germans, Poles, Turks etc. The exceptions being in NA, the UK and Australia. 

[Capetan Mihali]

I drink liters of seltzer a day, but I thew my Sodastream in the trash, which was heartbreaking since I've used seltzer machines sincee 1999.. 

And thereby helped throw hundreds of Palestinians out of work.

No, in fact the backlash induced the company to move its factory out of the "Occupied Territories" and into Israel proper.  Sorry.

[Barrister]

I drink liters of seltzer a day, but I thew my Sodastream in the trash, which was heartbreaking since I've used seltzer machines sincee 1999.. 

And thereby helped throw hundreds of Palestinians out of work.

No, in fact the backlash induced the company to move its factory out of the "Occupied Territories" and into Israel proper.  Sorry.

You're both right.  The factory was moved into Israel proper, and 470 Palestinians lost their jobs.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/sodastream-factory-shows-palestinian-bedouins-plight-150910100606371.html

[Admiral Yi]

No, in fact the backlash induced the company to move its factory out of the "Occupied Territories" and into Israel proper.  Sorry.

Is that supposed to be better?  I don't see how it is.

[Capetan Mihali]

I haven't accused you of using their cause to bolster your own self-righteousness.  I've said you were a convert to a cause. I assume you are quite sincere in that cause.

You have a cause, too: Zionism.  And I'm just as convinced that you're quite sincere.  It just happens to be that your cause has become the status quo not just on Languish but in most of the West, so you don't have to assert it as openly as those with a different cause.

Think what you want. Personally, I think it is totally possible to, at one and the same time, criticize Israeli policies - such as those towards "settlers", racism in Israeli local land planning, etc. - while seeing these things in perspective. After all, my own country does and has done all sorts of scandalous things towards its own Native population - in some cases far worse that anything Israel has done (look up "residential schools" if you don't believe me) - yet that doesn't affect my judgment that Canada is, over all, a pretty acceptable Western country.

Not sure what the scare quotes around settlers implies, but nevermind that.  The difference between the scandalous things Canada has done is that those are long in the past; Israel is doing those scandalous things now -- I can't go back in time and denounce the Trail of Tears or the Mexican-American war. I see it as a moral obligation to object to those things, just as I object to the things I think are scandalous that the US is currently doing.  And I feel a special obligation to resist Israel's deeds because billions of dollars of the money of US citizens is enabling them.

[Barrister]

Not sure what the scare quotes around settlers implies, but nevermind that.  The difference between the scandalous things Canada has done is that those are long in the past; Israel is doing those scandalous things now -- I can't go back in time and denounce the Trail of Tears or the Mexican-American war. I see it as a moral obligation to object to those things, just as I object to the things I think are scandalous that the US is currently doing.  And I feel a special obligation to resist Israel's deeds because billions of dollars of the money of US citizens is enabling them.

The scandalous things the US has done to natives, and blacks, is a hell of a lot more recent than the 19th century.  Talk to the Black Lives Matter crowd and they'll tell you they're happening right now.

[Capetan Mihali]

Not sure what the scare quotes around settlers implies, but nevermind that.  The difference between the scandalous things Canada has done is that those are long in the past; Israel is doing those scandalous things now -- I can't go back in time and denounce the Trail of Tears or the Mexican-American war. I see it as a moral obligation to object to those things, just as I object to the things I think are scandalous that the US is currently doing.  And I feel a special obligation to resist Israel's deeds because billions of dollars of the money of US citizens is enabling them.

The scandalous things the US has done to natives, and blacks, is a hell of a lot more recent than the 19th century.  Talk to the Black Lives Matter crowd and they'll tell you they're happening right now.