EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Tamas]

Macedonia has declared a state of emergency because of the tens of thousands of refugees pouring over the border from Greece and will use the army to close themselves off.

I read they had 38 thousand migrants entering last month. That's like 2% of the country's entire population. In one month!

[Syt]

Well, passing through. But yeah.

I feel somewhat reminded of the lat Roman Empire. The migrant barbarians for the most part didn't want to destroy the Empire, but wanted to live within the safety and prosperity of its borders. When the Romans rejected them they took it by force.

[Tamas]

Well, passing through. But yeah.

I feel somewhat reminded of the lat Roman Empire. The migrant barbarians for the most part didn't want to destroy the Empire, but wanted to live within the safety and prosperity of its borders. When the Romans rejected them they took it by force.

Yeah. We are not there yet though. But can eventually get there, in a decade or two.

[Grallon]

...

So I am wondering if refusing to acknowledge and address (as in, dismiss in a logical manner, or offer solutions) common concerns by the left and liberals, they are TOTALLY conceding the ground to the radicals, because they are the only ones who are even willing to acknowledge there is a cause for concern for whatever reason.

Of course it does but they're so wrapped up in self righteousness they can't help themselves.   If one side has knee-jerk anti-immigrant reactions - than the other has knee-jerk dismissal reactions.  There's no problem according to them and merely voicing a concern is immediately branded as racist/xenophobic.  The more they deny there's problem, the stronger the other side becomes and the faster the whole thing will blow in their faces.

*shrug* people are people



G.

[Zanza]

I see why you guys would latch on to the "killing" part of his post as it's pretty outrageous, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say about his initial point-- "Do any of these people represent any sort of plus value for whichever country is saddled with them?"

That's a legitimate question when it comes to "normal" immigrants as they don't have any right to come and taking them is a privilege. We do have a blue card in the EU and various other mechanisms to regulate this kind of immigration.
It's not a legitimate question when it comes to asylum seekers and refugees. These people need our help because they could not stay at home due to war or persecution. They have a human right to shelter and aid.
The problem is that these two categories are often conflated and that many that apply under the second category belong top the first and are not admitted.

[Duque de Bragança]

Well, passing through. But yeah.

I feel somewhat reminded of the lat Roman Empire. The migrant barbarians for the most part didn't want to destroy the Empire, but wanted to live within the safety and prosperity of its borders. When the Romans rejected them they took it by force.

Yeah. We are not there yet though. But can eventually get there, in a decade or two.

I am shocked, shocked to see a German describing the Barbarian invasions as "mostly" migrations. 

I am thinking more and more of the situation described by this 1973 book, The Camp of the Saints

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Camp_des_saints

Useful idiots on the left welcoming immigration since they do not have to mix with the newly arrived ones, out of self-hatred sometimes ; lack of will by governments to deal with the issue, poverty in the thirld world etc. It's more of an allegory though, even if the book is really over the top at times.
The book is certainly un-PC, reader's discretion is advised.

[Syt]

Agreed, Zanza.

Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.

IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.

[Syt]

Useful idiots on the left welcoming immigration since they do not have to mix with the newly arrived ones, out of self-hatred sometimes ; lack of will by governments to deal with the issue, poverty in the thirld world etc. It's more of an allegory though, even if the book is really over the top at times.
The book is certainly un-PC, reader's discretion is advised.

... says the son of immigrants who works abroad.

[Tamas]

Agreed, Zanza.

Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.

IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.

Then again, while immigration is beneficial even on the short term, common sense say there is such a thing as too much immigrants over a too short period of time for the economy and the local culture to cope with them.
If this wave continues to grow at this rate, sooner or later Europe will reach that tipover point. Probably not in several years, but whatever plans are made they should be made with that in mind.

[derspiess]

Agreed, Zanza.

Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.

IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.

Wow, so expand it then?  Seems to me you might want to cut back a little.  I feel bad for people suffering in all parts of the world, but we (or you, or whoever) can't take them all in.

[Syt]

Agreed, Zanza.

Generally, the law only gives refuge to people who are politically prosecuted.

IMHO, it might have to be amended that in future to include people fleeing from climatic change - previously inhabitable areas turning to desert, land disappearing due to rising water levels etc.

Then again, while immigration is beneficial even on the short term, common sense say there is such a thing as too much immigrants over a too short period of time for the economy and the local culture to cope with them.
If this wave continues to grow at this rate, sooner or later Europe will reach that tipover point. Probably not in several years, but whatever plans are made they should be made with that in mind.

That's why I think that the EU needs to work out how to manage this.

- Quickly determine if there's serious humanitarian reasons for a refugee to stay or not
- Among those not making the cut, determine if there are qualified persons who can contribute to the society and offer them integration programs
- Return the others to their country of origin

[derspiess]

So is it generally accepted now that someone deemed worthy of refugee status will be allowed to stay forever?  Honest question, as my original understanding of how the refugee thing worked was that it was supposed to be a temporary arrangement until things improved.

[Zanza]

That's how it works, derspiess. It's meant to be temporary. Although there are integration programs for long term refugees.

[derspiess]

Meant to be temporary, but how often is that actually the case?

[Duque de Bragança]

Useful idiots on the left welcoming immigration since they do not have to mix with the newly arrived ones, out of self-hatred sometimes ; lack of will by governments to deal with the issue, poverty in the thirld world etc. It's more of an allegory though, even if the book is really over the top at times.
The book is certainly un-PC, reader's discretion is advised.

... says the son of immigrants who works abroad.

i.e the sort who brings a "plus-value" unlike these so-called refugees.  and hostile to facilitating business to human smugglers, unlike some "pro-migrant people" at Calais who even wanted to give money to be given to human smugglers since it was a question d'honneur ( matter of honour) for the refugees (?!). Ils n'ont qu'à le faire pour l'honneur... If they had any honour, they would do it for free.

The Glorious Thirty were another time, countries like France actually wanted labor (even more so Germany), to deflate wages yes, but there was a labour shortage for a while. December 1963 saw Portugal signing an labour agreement with France for instance, Portugal still being somewhat opposed to letting its citizens go, even after the agreement. This boosted illegal immigration, along with compulsory and long military service, but France regularised them almost automatically back then. My father had a passport (did his tour in Angola) so he did not have to be an illegal migrant.

Now France gets most immigration through family regrouping which does not help at all.

Btw, I don't work anymore abroad, and the work I did could not be done by a German

- Quickly determine if there's serious humanitarian reasons for a refugee to stay or not
- Among those not making the cut, determine if there are qualified persons who can contribute to the society and offer them integration programs
- Return the others to their country of origin

This is acceptable but b) is easier said than done and c) will be opposed by the usual useful idiots and most refugees will disappear before being sent back, if it happens.