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Fighting Freedom with Ebola

Started by derspiess, October 21, 2014, 10:58:39 AM

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Berkut

#15
October 21, 2014, 01:46:53 PM
While only a fool would claim that libertarianism means the state has no power to fight something like this, only a fool would also refuse to recognize that the state can, will, and in fact historically has used crisis to justify restrictions in personal freedom. Sometimes those restrictions are reasonable and justified.

Often they are not reasonable or justified, or are enacted for one purpose (we must protect America from terrorists!) then used for completely different purposes (Woohooo! More power to fight the never ending war on drugs!).
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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alfred russel

#16
October 21, 2014, 01:53:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 21, 2014, 01:46:53 PM
More power to fight the never ending war on drugs!

Why do people quote the long term nature of the war on drugs as a reason to give up? I mean, the struggle between good and evil has lasted for a while and shows fews signs of winding down, should we give that up too?
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Berkut

#17
October 21, 2014, 01:57:45 PM Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:59:57 PM by Berkut
Quote from: alfred russel on October 21, 2014, 01:53:10 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 21, 2014, 01:46:53 PM
More power to fight the never ending war on drugs!

Why do people quote the long term nature of the war on drugs as a reason to give up? I mean, the struggle between good and evil has lasted for a while and shows fews signs of winding down, should we give that up too?

Because the fact that the war as abjectly failed while never seeming to end while at the same time costing an immense amount of money while we put more people in prison than any other country on the planet suggests that perhaps we should consider whether it is worth the effort.


But that isn't really my point of course.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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alfred russel

#18
October 21, 2014, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 21, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Because the fact that the war as abjectly failed while never seeming to end while at the same time costing an immense amount of money while we put more people in prison than any other country on the planet suggests that perhaps we should consider whether it is worth the effort.

Can't the same arguments be made for theft, murder, and sex crimes?

I'm not sure the criteria for which we are judging the laws to have failed. It seems likely anti drug laws reduce drug use. Evidence indicates for instance alcohol use declined quite a bit during prohibition. Does the cost justify the benefit should be the question. For alcohol and softer drugs, I'm prone to answer no, for harder drugs I'm prone to answer yes, but the liklihood that in 100 years there will still be crime doesn't seem like a good reason to get rid of a set of criminal laws.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Valmy

#19
October 21, 2014, 02:05:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 21, 2014, 02:03:34 PM
Can't the same arguments be made for theft, murder, and sex crimes?

Nope.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Berkut

#20
October 21, 2014, 02:10:33 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 21, 2014, 02:03:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 21, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Because the fact that the war as abjectly failed while never seeming to end while at the same time costing an immense amount of money while we put more people in prison than any other country on the planet suggests that perhaps we should consider whether it is worth the effort.

Can't the same arguments be made for theft, murder, and sex crimes?

No. Which is why the same argument isn't made.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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alfred russel

#21
October 21, 2014, 02:13:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 21, 2014, 02:05:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on October 21, 2014, 02:03:34 PM
Can't the same arguments be made for theft, murder, and sex crimes?

Nope.

The criminalization of child porn laws has abjectly failed despite crackdowns over decades while at the same time costing an immense amount of money while we put more people in prison and sex offender registries than any other country on the planet suggests that perhaps we should consider whether it is worth the effort.

That argument seems cogent, whether you agree with it or not. (I don't)
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

Valmy

#22
October 21, 2014, 02:37:14 PM
Interesting you chose porn and not murder.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

derspiess

#23
October 21, 2014, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 21, 2014, 02:37:14 PM
Interesting you chose porn and not murder.

:lol:  Seems like a safer choice.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall
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