Incest a 'fundamental right', German committee says

[crazy canuck]

The idea that I couldn't give or withhold consent if I was propositioned by my mom or dad is both bizarre and vaguely insulting.

Sure but I am not sure how holding yourself up as an example helps.

[Berkut]

The idea that I couldn't give or withhold consent if I was propositioned by my mom or dad is both bizarre and vaguely insulting.

Of course it is.

But that is precisely the argument being made - that adults do not in fact have the ability to make their own decisions, and that there are in fact cases where Been and Malthus have a much better idea about what is the set of acceptable decisions you are allowed to make, and they will put you in jail if you make the wrong one in respect to who you decide to have sex with...

This is because they are concerned that you cannot make a good decision because of a possible power imbalance between you and your partner. Of course, it isn't *actually* about that at all, since there are literally an infinite number of other examples where someone with more power of some kind or another might coerce you into sex that they are perfectly ok with, but it makes for a good justification for the real reason - incest is gross.

[Barrister]

He's not. As he explained it, there was a case where a father groomed his daughter to become his wife and yadda yadda yadda, slidin' down the slope, it could happen to siblings too.

A colleague was telling me about a file where dad "moved in" to his daughters room at one point.  Mother was still in the house - apparently wilfully blind about the whole thing.  I believe it started when the daughter was under 18, but continued once she was older.  Daughter seemingly "consented" at the time, but has now come to view what happened to her as abuse.

[Malthus]

No such case in Poland. I bet you could find weird laws somewhere in the world to support any thesis, though.

Different jurisdictions look at these issues differently - same as with age of consent, which varies a lot.

I have no trouble, conceptually, with family relationships being treated differently from other kinds of relationships when it comes to consent. Such "presumptions" are drawn for social reasons - to reduce perceived harms.

Same with fiddling with the age of consent for teacher-student relationships. This example is a good one because it clearly does not have a history of religious taboo, or even a high "ick" factor - it is purely based on perceived harms and concerns over abuse of authority. 

[Berkut]

He's not. As he explained it, there was a case where a father groomed his daughter to become his wife and yadda yadda yadda, slidin' down the slope, it could happen to siblings too.

I've already successfully dismisses that case as relevant to the general issue - the case cited is an extrem outlier, and the problem it actually illuminates is not really about sex, that is just a consequence of the problem. And the problem exists in many other aspects, and should be addressed (to the extent it can be addressed) in those contexts. And as someone who has more than a token concern for liberty, as opposed to a extreme concern that people don't have sex I don't approve of, I would very much be in favor of handling those cases in the general, rather than in the particular. But that goes well beyond just parents having sex as a result of brainwashing their kids, and gets into all the other things parents do to indoctrinate their children.

I suspect Beebs won't be getting onto the "Don't send your kid to Sunday School before he is capable of making his own decisions about faith" train though either...

[Berkut]

He's not. As he explained it, there was a case where a father groomed his daughter to become his wife and yadda yadda yadda, slidin' down the slope, it could happen to siblings too.

A colleague was telling me about a file where dad "moved in" to his daughters room at one point.  Mother was still in the house - apparently wilfully blind about the whole thing.  I believe it started when the daughter was under 18, but continued once she was older.  Daughter seemingly "consented" at the time, but has now come to view what happened to her as abuse.

That can be handled without any need for incest laws.

If she was under 18, that is statutory rape. If over 18, and she did not give consent, it is just regular rape.

Hell, I would not even mind creating a very difficult to meet bar for consent in a case like that, where consent is presumed to be withheld absent some extremely explicit communication to the contrary.

[Martinus]

He's not. As he explained it, there was a case where a father groomed his daughter to become his wife and yadda yadda yadda, slidin' down the slope, it could happen to siblings too.

Ok I am giving up then. No point arguing with people who have a completely incompatible outlook on life. I may just as well go and try to convince someone from ISIL that religious tolerance is a good thing.

[Malthus]

The idea that I couldn't give or withhold consent if I was propositioned by my mom or dad is both bizarre and vaguely insulting.

Of course it is.

But that is precisely the argument being made - that adults do not in fact have the ability to make their own decisions, and that there are in fact cases where Been and Malthus have a much better idea about what is the set of acceptable decisions you are allowed to make, and they will put you in jail if you make the wrong one in respect to who you decide to have sex with...

This is because they are concerned that you cannot make a good decision because of a possible power imbalance between you and your partner. Of course, it isn't *actually* about that at all, since there are literally an infinite number of other examples where someone with more power of some kind or another might coerce you into sex that they are perfectly ok with, but it makes for a good justification for the real reason - incest is gross.

This is, of course, untrue. The exactly comparable example of teacher-student sex has been raised. Does anyone here think that is per se "gross"? 

Whether incest is "gross" or not has nothing to do with my analysis - though, for the record, I do find it "gross". It is not, however, what motivates the analysis. I gave that upthread.

[The Brain]

Have you met my teachers?

[Barrister]

I suspect Beebs won't be getting onto the "Don't send your kid to Sunday School before he is capable of making his own decisions about faith" train though either...

Just this once - little Timmy was going to have a sleepover at his friend's house on Saturday night.  At around 8pm we get a call - Timmy does not want to stay.  So a quick change of plans leads to his little buddy coming over to sleep over with us.

Since Timmy was going to be at his friends, that was going to mean no Sunday school for him.  But once he's home, he immediately asks us about going to Sunday school - and what's more he wants his little buddy to come with him too!

Now I don't know what to do about this, because I know his little buddy's parents are Baha'i, and raising him in that faith.  I very neutrally ask his mom about Sunday morning, and she says "sure".

So the next morning we take Timmy and his buddy to church, and they go to Sunday school.  Afterwards they both had a blast.  His little buddy might be smarter than Timmy though - I asked them what they learned about, and Timmy said "we learned about fishes!", while showing me a colouring project they had done with some fish.  His buddy though goes "No! We learned about God."

[crazy canuck]

He's not. As he explained it, there was a case where a father groomed his daughter to become his wife and yadda yadda yadda, slidin' down the slope, it could happen to siblings too.

I've already successfully dismisses that case as relevant to the general issue

   :lol:Oh well then.  I bow to your amazingness.

[Martinus]

It seems there must be some fundamental flaw in education of Canadian lawyers. 

[crazy canuck]

The idea that I couldn't give or withhold consent if I was propositioned by my mom or dad is both bizarre and vaguely insulting.

Of course it is.

But that is precisely the argument being made - that adults do not in fact have the ability to make their own decisions, and that there are in fact cases where Been and Malthus have a much better idea about what is the set of acceptable decisions you are allowed to make, and they will put you in jail if you make the wrong one in respect to who you decide to have sex with...

This is because they are concerned that you cannot make a good decision because of a possible power imbalance between you and your partner. Of course, it isn't *actually* about that at all, since there are literally an infinite number of other examples where someone with more power of some kind or another might coerce you into sex that they are perfectly ok with, but it makes for a good justification for the real reason - incest is gross.

This is, of course, untrue. The exactly comparable example of teacher-student sex has been raised. Does anyone here think that is per se "gross"? 

Whether incest is "gross" or not has nothing to do with my analysis - though, for the record, I do find it "gross". It is not, however, what motivates the analysis. I gave that upthread.

Don't bother.  He is in full stride.  He has already been told that his theory that we oppose it because it is "icky" is silly.  But that won't slow him down.

[Eddie Teach]

It seems there must be some fundamental flaw in education of Canadian lawyers. 

They settle for a Bachelor's Degree instead of a Doctorate.

[crazy canuck]

It seems there must be some fundamental flaw in education of Canadian lawyers. 

Is there an analogy coming?  Please tell me you are about to make an analogy?