Human Rights Watch Warns of 'Authoritarian Drift' in Turkey

[jimmy olsen]

This thread needs a new name.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

And Turkey abolished their last remaining republican division of powers and introduced a dictatorship with a referendum yesterday that the government supposedly won, but that international observers see very critical with regards to fairness.

can we now deport the turks that voted yes in this referendum? They should get the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of the vote

[Zanza]

Yeah, they should really ask themselves why they are still here. Deportation is of course over the top, but I also do not think we should just accept proto-fascists in our midth.

[garbon]

Yeah, they should really ask themselves why they are still here. Deportation is of course over the top, but I also do not think we should just accept proto-fascists in our midth.

I mean are they doing anything proto-fascist in your country? Those are the ones to do something about. Simply voting in a way you dislike...

[Zanza]

There are some that spread distrust and smother anti-Erdogan voices in the Turkish community either through social pressure or outright collaboration with the Turkish government to suppress opposition. Those we should actively stand against to make sure that the Turks living here can actually participate in our liberal freedom of speech. In some cases they go as far as espionage or so and then we should use the available laws to prosecute them and also deport them (if they don't have a German passport). I would also limit Turkish government-sponsored activism in Germany, especially Ditib seems suspect and I don't see why we should accept organizations like that here.

But what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.

But what we certainly shouldn't do is to just ignore or accept the fact that many people in our country just voted for the abolishment of one of our core values, even it was in a third country.

[Zanza]

The opposition doesn't have any parliamentarian or media means to make itself heard anymore and does not accept the referendum result (unlike earlier elections) as there are serious claims of voter fraud for such a close referendum. As Erdogan will suppress all legal means of opposition to his rule, some of his opponents will turn to violence. Not just in the Kurdish areas, but elsewhere as well. And their current economic weakness won't be cured by the new dictatorship either, so Erdogan's promise of more stability and security will go unfulfilled. Let's see if the Turks will be cowed like the Russians under Putin are or whether there will be more active opposition to him even after this.

[OttoVonBismarck]

But what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.

That's why you and your people are headed for the dustbin of history. You simply cannot address the Islamist curse with these liberal soft-power approaches. They are a brute people who understand and respect brute force, anything else they ignore.

[OttoVonBismarck]

As for Turkey: Muslims don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Muslims or (worse) non-Muslims, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, Turkey has only been kept "free" by a military willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the military once Turkey had embraced liberal democracy to the point military options for suppressing Islamism were no longer seen as acceptable.

There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Muslims in Western society.

[Valmy]

But what I mainly meant with "not accepting" is more on an information, education and respect level. There is a surprising number of young Turks (no matter their actual passport) that were in favor of the referendum. They feel excluded from our society, not respected as Turks and lack information about the political situation in Turkey and the consequences of this referendum. We should try to win them over to our own liberal view and not leave them for Erdogan to entice with his authoritarian nationalism. That's something that your society has so far not done at all or at least too little. Another failure of integration. Lamenting their views and suggesting illegal activities like deportation won't help. We need to try to improve the situation with the means that we actually have.

That's why you and your people are headed for the dustbin of history. You simply cannot address the Islamist curse with these liberal soft-power approaches. They are a brute people who understand and respect brute force, anything else they ignore.

Don't worry Otto. The German far right is on the rise.

[grumbler]

As for Turkey: Muslims don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Muslims or (worse) non-Muslims, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, Turkey has only been kept "free" by a military willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the military once Turkey had embraced liberal democracy to the point military options for suppressing Islamism were no longer seen as acceptable.

There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Muslims in Western society.

True, but Islam isn't the only problem we have.  Christians don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Christians or (worse) non-Christians, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, The West has only been kept "free" by a court system willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the judiciary once the West had embraced liberal democracy to the point legal options for suppressing Christian fundamentalism were no longer seen as acceptable.

There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Christians in Western society.

[garbon]

As for Turkey: Muslims don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Muslims or (worse) non-Muslims, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, Turkey has only been kept "free" by a military willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the military once Turkey had embraced liberal democracy to the point military options for suppressing Islamism were no longer seen as acceptable.

There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Muslims in Western society.

True, but Islam isn't the only problem we have.  Christians don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Christians or (worse) non-Christians, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, The West has only been kept "free" by a court system willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the judiciary once the West had embraced liberal democracy to the point legal options for suppressing Christian fundamentalism were no longer seen as acceptable.

There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Christians in Western society.

So we rally around Le Pen?

[OttoVonBismarck]

True, but Islam isn't the only problem we have.  Christians don't like democracy because it gives too many freedoms and power to secular Christians or (worse) non-Christians, not to mention women. This isn't new at all, The West has only been kept "free" by a court system willing to step in and stop this from time to time, but we've finally gotten a leader there who outmaneuvered the judiciary once the West had embraced liberal democracy to the point legal options for suppressing Christian fundamentalism were no longer seen as acceptable.

There's really not a lot more to talk about with it, the focus should be on making it so we don't have Christians in Western society.

When someone's Autism spectrum disorder flares up and creates a post like this, I usually resist the temptation to respond as I would have in my youth, but I'll (regretfully) wade into this one. There are obviously parallels between Christians and their behavior in Western society and Muslims and their behavior in Middle Eastern societies vis-a-vis religion's role in the state and public life. But the differences are many-fold. Particularly for example a court system is fundamentally different as a check against religiosity in public life versus the military, because for courts to function for over 200 years (as they have in the United States, to varying degrees) to check religious encroachments in government, suggests a base level of societal legitimacy and acceptance of the law and the court system, and the idea of secularism. The courts would no more last than civilian government if they lacked said legitimacy over a prolonged period of time. The fact that Turkey has had to resort to the military suggests that it has a long, persistent lack of institutional respect for democratic norms that conflict with Muslim teachings.

I'm not a theologian, but I think there are both structural reasons within Islam and cultural reasons throughout the Middle East that make acceptance of secular government far less a cultural norm in those societies. It's really telling that America's people 240 years ago were less desirous of a religious state than Turkey's people in 2017. Despite some odd hiccups in conflicting directions, the United States has only become more secular with time, also (for example prior to incorporation of the first amendment, many states had state churches, usually Episcopalian.)

[OttoVonBismarck]

So we rally around Le Pen?

The problem about rallying around Le Pen, Trump, or similar figures is they're mostly wrong on everything and terrible but they're right on Islam. The very fact that people who are so terrible and wrong on virtually everything continue to get support is at least partially because society recognizes the threat to it from Muslims better than the liberal elite. I'm certainly not ascribing all of right wing populism to the Islamic threat, but I think it explains much of it in Europe. In America I think the Islamic threat is more theoretical and thus it was only one of a collection of minority views that propelled him to the Presidency. But given his small margin of victory he likely isn't President without it.

The answer then is that liberal democracy needs to recognize Islamism is an existential threat, the same way we recognized Communism and Fascism were, and respond accordingly.

[Valmy]

Well we had this thing called the 'Wars of Religion' in the 16th and 17th centuries that were pretty influential on how Christians relate to their governments. Pretty sure Grumbler has heard of them so I am not sure why he is acting like that whole business never occured.

[Valmy]

The answer then is that liberal democracy needs to recognize Islamism is an existential threat, the same way we recognized Communism and Fascism were, and respond accordingly.

Well we tolerated the existence of Communists and Fascists in our country for the most part didn't we? Besides there is something fundamentally different between those things and something like a religion I think. Or at least a major and very old world religion like Islam.

I guess I don't really see how Islam is really some sort of existential threat. The draw of Islam is tradition and culture, hardly something that is going to spread and be seductive to people not from those cultures or outside of those traditions. I don't see tons of people flocking to sign up to Islam anymore than I see tons of people flocking to sign up to become Hindus. Whereas Fascism and Communism were designed to seduce people from Western Society.