Leftist economic ideas are based on the worst human emotions, the UK edition

[Tamas]

There were trenches in WW2

[Martinus]

Sometimes democracy does in fact suck. Like when the southerners all voted for segregation. Popular opinion isn't all it's cracked up to be.

That's why it is today assumed that when one is talking about democracy one in fact means the so-called liberal democracy, which guarantees certain protections to the rights of minorities. Otherwise, democracy is just a mob-rule and usually ends up simply legitimising tyranny.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

So, the Labour Party wants to finance the NHS by putting extra tax on expensive homes.

This is one of those populist BS stuff that pisses me off. Those houses were bought from taxed incomes. So why should they be able to go around discriminating people for the kind of houses they bought?

You're better off taxing property and sales than income.
Income tax can be dodged. Even some part of the sales tax can be avoided.  But you buy a house with dirty money, they will always get you there, unless you decide to really live permantly in the Virgin Island of the Isle of Man.  But then you'd have to pay sales tax on your hotel room for when you are in the UK...

If anything Greece shows us that propertytax can be dodged too

[Richard Hakluyt]

The current property taxes are regressive, I would prefer to see them replaced with a pro rata tax on the value of real estate. This would also raise far more money than the token "mansion tax" nonsense.

The residential property tax in the UK is known as the Council Tax. The highest band of house worth millions pays only 3x what someone living in a one-room hovel would pay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax#Current_bands

What does the denominator represent in that table Tricky?  I can't be fannied to read the whole freakin article.

It is just a made up number I think. The TLDR thing is to look at the England average council tax figures and then compare it with the property value band, remembering that the property values are those of 20 years ago, so most houses are worth at least twice what their council tax band says they are.

[Tamas]

So, the Labour Party wants to finance the NHS by putting extra tax on expensive homes.

This is one of those populist BS stuff that pisses me off. Those houses were bought from taxed incomes. So why should they be able to go around discriminating people for the kind of houses they bought?

You're better off taxing property and sales than income.
Income tax can be dodged. Even some part of the sales tax can be avoided.  But you buy a house with dirty money, they will always get you there, unless you decide to really live permantly in the Virgin Island of the Isle of Man.  But then you'd have to pay sales tax on your hotel room for when you are in the UK...

Yeah, I think I prefer VAT over the income tax for the reasons you outlined, although worth noting that it is quite possible to be "tricky" with VAT as well.

So I would probable be game for replacing income tax with a higher VAT and a property tax. But this Labour idea isn't a real property tax now, is it? It's a "single out a topic the masses envy and designate that as the target to punish in order to get a better society" populist bullshit.

[Warspite]

Are property taxes levied on the value of the structure (ie the house) or the just the value of the land?

One reason I'm not terribly keen on property taxes is that they are not based on the ability to pay. Why aren't local income taxes more widely used?

[Siege]

Those houses were bought from taxed incomes.

Not necessarily so.
Lots of expensive property in the UK is in the hands of wealthy foreigners and lots of our wealthy take part in various tax avoidance and overseas banking schemes.

Lower the taxes so investing at home become more profitable than overseas.

[MadImmortalMan]

Are property taxes levied on the value of the structure (ie the house) or the just the value of the land?

One reason I'm not terribly keen on property taxes is that they are not based on the ability to pay. Why aren't local income taxes more widely used?

I don't get that either. It doesn't do anybody any good for the government to seize some poor guy's house/farm/whatever due to inability to pay the tax bill. It just facilitates the transfer of property and assets from the poor to the rich.

[crazy canuck]

There are similar "mansion" taxes in both NY and NJ.  It's a little silly as in Manhattan a very nice 1 BR apartment can cross the threshhold for a "mansion".   In any case, it doesn't seem to have hurt the RE market too much.

Yeah, we have a similar tax here.  Introduced decades ago it was thought to be a kind of "luxury tax" at the time but the threshold was never changed and so all property is now over the threshold by some amount.  It has been a good source of revenue for the Provincial government.

[crazy canuck]

I love little of democracy's marriage with the welfare state, yes, because I think it is a corrosive combination that is counterproductive. To solve this, I am not suggesting dropping democracy (although I would be very willing to accept some kind of solution which would limit influence on the budget to voters who actually contribute to it), I am suggesting cutting the welfare state.

In what way is the welfare state counterproductive and for whom?

[crazy canuck]

Are property taxes levied on the value of the structure (ie the house) or the just the value of the land?

One reason I'm not terribly keen on property taxes is that they are not based on the ability to pay. Why aren't local income taxes more widely used?

I don't get that either. It doesn't do anybody any good for the government to seize some poor guy's house/farm/whatever due to inability to pay the tax bill. It just facilitates the transfer of property and assets from the poor to the rich.

In Canada local governments cannot levy income taxes - and it would be a bit tricky to do so on the rich who would just declare their residency to be outside that jurisdiction.  Property values are in part a function of the infrastructure built to accommodate that property.  The argument that the property owner shouldn't pay for that benefit isnt very persuasive to me.

[Tamas]

There are similar "mansion" taxes in both NY and NJ.  It's a little silly as in Manhattan a very nice 1 BR apartment can cross the threshhold for a "mansion".   In any case, it doesn't seem to have hurt the RE market too much.

Yeah, we have a similar tax here.  Introduced decades ago it was thought to be a kind of "luxury tax" at the time but the threshold was never changed and so all property is now over the threshold by some amount.  It has been a good source of revenue for the Provincial government.

It may be a needed revenue for that particular government, but "good source of revenue" in general terms is a horrible justification for a tax.

[crazy canuck]

There are similar "mansion" taxes in both NY and NJ.  It's a little silly as in Manhattan a very nice 1 BR apartment can cross the threshhold for a "mansion".   In any case, it doesn't seem to have hurt the RE market too much.

Yeah, we have a similar tax here.  Introduced decades ago it was thought to be a kind of "luxury tax" at the time but the threshold was never changed and so all property is now over the threshold by some amount.  It has been a good source of revenue for the Provincial government.

It may be a needed revenue for that particular government, but "good source of revenue" in general terms is a horrible justification for a tax.

Are you suggesting that needed tax revenue should be raised from bad sources of revenue?

[Valmy]

Lower the taxes so investing at home become more profitable than overseas.

What we need to do is increase taxes overseas.

[Valmy]

One reason I'm not terribly keen on property taxes is that they are not based on the ability to pay. Why aren't local income taxes more widely used?

Because then Texas can say 'we have no income taxes!  Pay no attention to the giant property taxes behind the curtain'