The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

Started by Syt, August 11, 2014, 04:09:04 AM

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The Brain

Quote from: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 02:16:36 PM
Valmy, you are wasting your time. Racism is a belief, it isn't the considered conclusion from examining the evidence.  You cannot convince a person to change their deeply-held beliefs with evidence.

:D IIRC it was a race discussion many years ago that made me realize that you're The Compleat Moran. You really are clueless. I also like that you accuse me of racism. Nice touch.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Oexmelin

Quote from: grumbler on June 04, 2020, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

I would argue that they obviously have a real impact on the world, but I take it from your question that you do not.

Then you misread.

It just seems strange to insist race doesn't exist, can't explain anything, and cannot leave evidence.

Switch the argument to private property. Since private property doesn't exist naturally, it can't explain anything, and therefore, we cannot find evidence of it.

I know that people want to undermine the category of race by saying it carries no biological determinism. That's great. However, we have inherited a world that has very much, and for the last three centuries, made race an operative category. Which means it has structured states, laws, cultures, international relations, etc. My belief about what race is, or isn't, can certainly influence the political struggles around it, but it can't make it go away anymore than my beliefs about private property cannot make it go away and magically render it inoperative.
Que le grand cric me croque !

The Larch

Some Fox dupe, apparently.

QuoteKilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

:hmm:

The Brain

Quote from: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 02:32:18 PM
Some Fox dupe, apparently.

QuoteKilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

:hmm:

Isn't Chapman still locked up?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Barrister

Quote from: The Larch on June 04, 2020, 02:32:18 PM
Some Fox dupe, apparently.

QuoteKilmeade: 'John Lennon Would Not Be Safe In New York City Right Now'

:hmm:

He's right.  John Lennon would have been 79 years old, and NYC is a Covid hotspot.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Valmy

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Sheilbh

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.
How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

It's like saying if you don't believe in God, religion isn't a real thing. How we live, how we organise societies, how and what we believe etc are all real things.
Let's bomb Russia!

Oexmelin

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.
Que le grand cric me croque !

garbon

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.
How can something not be real if it shapes our societies? That's not just conceptual.

It's like saying if you don't believe in God, religion isn't a real thing. How we live, how we organise societies, how and what we believe etc are all real things.

I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

Does the object of a belief system have to be real for the belief system to have real impact?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Valmy

Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

I don't see how something that isn't real can have huge social implications. Are you using real as synonym for "material"?

It is as real as private property. Is it nice and cuddly? No. Does it work biologically like racists insist it does? No. Is it real? Yes. People die over it. Even if I don't want it to be.

I am using real as a synonym for something physically in existance. I may be the using the wrong word. But it wouldn't be surprising for a argument to hinge on semantics.

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Sheilbh

Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.
Let's bomb Russia!

Tamas

Race is real because we choose to make it real.

The Brain

Quote from: Valmy on June 04, 2020, 03:06:05 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on June 04, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Can beliefs have real impact upon the world?

Yes. Race is a very important concept with huge social implications...it just isn't a real thing.

My impression is that you operate with a meaning of the word race which is considerably different from mainstream usage. I hate bringing out a dictionary but since we appear to be talking about completely different things I did. The first I came across was this one:

a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group

From here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/race

Do you actually think that groups like that don't exist? If so great, then I understand what you're saying at least.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Valmy

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 04, 2020, 03:21:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2020, 03:16:30 PM
I see you skipped the obvious statement which is God isn't real and yet belief in god has shaped our society.
I thought that was the point I was making.

Whether you believe in God or not, whether race is real or not - we can't opt out of the world we're in. The world has been profoundly shaped by race, it is real because we have made it real.

So therefore is a God real just because people believe in that God?

But obviously race is still very important, just because something doesn't actually exist physically does not mean it isn't important.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."