The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Jacob]

In my experience starting with any kind of "default starting point" means you're well down the road to tunnel vision.

Take your facts as you find them and draw conclusions as appropriate.

The fact is that a 12 year old boy is dead, having been armed with a toy gun.

The remaining facts are still to be established, it seems.

[Admiral Yi]

He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

The caller said it might be a replica.  Not much point in calling 911 if you know a kid is playing with a toy gun.

Not sure how it changes things if the cops had known it *might* be a replica. 

[crazy canuck]

He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

The caller said it might be a replica.  Not much point in calling 911 if you know a kid is playing with a toy gun.

Not sure how it changes things if the cops had known it *might* be a replica.

Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

[Malthus]

If he were sure enough about that, he wouldn't bother calling 911, one would reasonably assume.  But we don't need to assume, because we know from what he said that he wasn't sure it was a replica.  Your paraphrasing is a little disingenuous.

Not so.

What he allegedly said was as follows:

A man shown sitting under a nearby gazebo made a 911 call, telling the dispatcher "there's a guy in here with a pistol, pointing it at everybody," according to audio of the call. The caller said the gun is "probably fake, but you know what, he's scaring the s— out of people," and later said, "I don't know if it's real or not." He described Tamir as "probably a juvenile." He eventually left the park.

But information about the gun possibly being fake wasn't mentioned to the officers in a call to them about a young black male with a gun in a park.

So, he first says it was "probaby a fake", then qualifies that by saying he didn't know - which is reasonable, because he can't know for sure. 

The reason for his call was clear - he thought the kid was "scaring the s— out of people". Not that he was actually a risk - he was "scaring" people.

That's a perfectly reasonable reason to call. So your "If he were sure enough about that, he wouldn't bother calling 911, one would reasonably assume" doesn't make sense. Obviously, he would call whether it was fake or not - the kid was allegedly scaring people.

They had more time to observe, and neither the means or the duty to do anything about the boy either way.  I'm sure the cops would've preferred to have 15 seconds to evaluate the situation themselves, but whatever they saw made them conclude that they had to act immediately.  Obviously it was a mistake in hindsight, but the whole discussion is whether it was a justifiable mistake or a reckless one.

The immediacy was all of the cop's own making - as you can plainly see, they drive right up to the kid. Why not approach the kid from further away?

[Malthus]

He didn't fool the bystander - the bystander was of the opinion the gun was a replica. (This info was allegedly not passed on to the cops)

Evidently, random gazebo-sitting dudes are more to be trusted on this point than trained cops ...

The caller said it might be a replica.  Not much point in calling 911 if you know a kid is playing with a toy gun.

Read what the guy said - his complaint was that a kid was "scaring" people.

Not sure how it changes things if the cops had known it *might* be a replica.

Once again, I am baffled. Cops, knowing in advance it "might" be a replica, and knowing in advance it "might" be a kid - and this makes literally no difference to whether they shoot to kill the instant the car stops or not?

[Admiral Yi]

Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

How would you like them to do that?

[Razgovory]

It might be more of rural/small town vs urban thing.  When ever we got cops who came in from St. Louis of KC they would whip out their guns and start screaming at people at the slightest provocation.  The Police chief would have to tell them to dial it back a bit, that's not how we deal with traffic stops in mid Missouri.  I think police from urban or suburban areas around big cities have a bit more of a siege mentality they they do out here in "Mayberry" country.

[DGuller]

The immediacy was all of the cop's own making - as you can plainly see, they drive right up to the kid. Why not approach the kid from further away?

Maybe it's a more effective tactic against an actual armed perp, which as far as they knew the kid was?  I don't know, I'm not a police tactics expert.  It does seem like you only consider one side of the risk, and discount the other side of the risk of letting an actual gunman present danger to others for longer than necessary.

[Admiral Yi]

Once again, I am baffled. Cops, knowing in advance it "might" be a replica, and knowing in advance it "might" be a kid - and this makes literally no difference to whether they shoot to kill the instant the car stops or not?

I'd be interested to know how you think cops should handle a situation in which someone might have a gun and they might not.

[crazy canuck]

Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

How would you like them to do that?

Really? The US has some of the best universities in the world and THAT is a difficult one to figure out?

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

[DGuller]

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

Most guns can shoot people other than cops.  If I'm around an armed perp, I may not necessarily want the cops to do what puts them in least danger.

[Malthus]

Maybe it's a more effective tactic against an actual armed perp, which as far as they knew the kid was?  I don't know, I'm not a police tactics expert.  It does seem like you only consider one side of the risk, and discount the other side of the risk of letting an actual gunman present danger to others for longer than necessary.

Yeah, the multiple risks of letting an armed boy run loose in an emply playground for that vital few seconds. 

Note that at no time was there any claim the kid was actually doing anything with said gun other than "scaring" people with it.

[Tonitrus]

Perhaps they could find out before driving at the kid, getting out and shooting him.  Just a thought.

How would you like them to do that?

Really? The US has some of the best universities in the world and THAT is a difficult one to figure out?

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

Cops here don't need to go to college. 

(but they probably should...heck it is probably one of the highest paying, no-degree required jobs out there these days)

[Admiral Yi]

Really? The US has some of the best universities in the world and THAT is a difficult one to figure out?

How about stopping further away from the kid so that the cops are not putting themselves in immediate danger in case the gun is real.

I misunderstood your point.  I agree that the cops should have approached differently.

[Malthus]

Once again, I am baffled. Cops, knowing in advance it "might" be a replica, and knowing in advance it "might" be a kid - and this makes literally no difference to whether they shoot to kill the instant the car stops or not?

I'd be interested to know how you think cops should handle a situation in which someone might have a gun and they might not.

If it "may" be a kid armed with a replica, or it "may" be a kid armed with a real gun?

How about approaching from a distance and engaging in some sort of dialogue with the kid? As in "kid, we have a report you are scaring people with a gun. Please raise your hands and keep them on you head while we approach you to check out what you have".