Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[OttoVonBismarck]

U.S. military spending is not particularly high. The era of things like slimming down the Navy and etc has come to an end, hopefully Biden realizes that.

We're not talking about anything we didn't do during the Cold War. The deployment numbers needed in Europe also don't have to be as big as Cold War deployments were, the raw manpower needed to dissuade Putin is probably a lot less than it was for Stalin and Brezhnev.

[celedhring]

We don't have a basketball thread so I'll post it here. The Euroleague has suspended all games involving Russian teams. A few hours ago FC Barcelona had refused to play against Zenit.

[The Larch]

Ukraine has announced that it has lost control of the Chernobyl area.

[celedhring]

At least 705 people have been arrested today at anti-war protests that have taken place in 40 Russian cities, the OVD-Info protest monitor said. The OVD-Info monitor has documented crackdowns on Russia's opposition for years.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Ukraine currently does not have enough military equipment to defend itself, the country's Ambassador to the United Kingdom, Vadym Prystaiko, said Thursday.

As Vindman says, we should have begun supplying weapons to Ukraine in large amounts immediately after Crimea. Instead we hemmed and hawed on it, spent years giving "military but non-lethal weapon aid" only finally opening up to real weapons aid in the last couple of years, but always in an amount that made no difference at all. U.S. cowardice has a price.

[Josquius]

Today I learned, irony of ironies, yesterday was a special day in the old USSR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defender_of_the_Fatherland_Day

[Jacob]

Uhm, what about all them profit targets? 

The real concern is not "profit targets" it's significant job losses, massive increase in prices for various things, lack of heating in winter, etc. There are real and tangible impacts from these proposed actions beyond "profit targets" and "shareholder value".

I'm not saying they shouldn't be done, but we should be cognizant of the impacts of the proposed actions and do our best to bring the affected populations along.

[Tamas]

Uhm, what about all them profit targets? 

The real concern is not "profit targets" it's significant job losses, massive increase in prices for various things, lack of heating in winter, etc. There are real and tangible impacts from these proposed actions beyond "profit targets" and "shareholder value".

I'm not saying they shouldn't be done, but we should be cognizant of the impacts of the proposed actions and do our best to bring the affected populations along.

Yeah but at the end of the day do we want the impact of all that for a few months while we adapt, or we want the impact of having to defend the Baltic States and Poland fighting in a nuclear hellscape?

[Syt]

Brazilian vice president condemned the invasion. Bolsonaro remains silent. He was in Moscow last week, declaring Brazil's solidarity with Russia.

[Threviel]

French embassy in Vienna.



It's facing the Red Army memorial on Schwarzenbergplatz.

That memorial should be made into a urinal.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Uhm, what about all them profit targets? 

The real concern is not "profit targets" it's significant job losses, massive increase in prices for various things, lack of heating in winter, etc. There are real and tangible impacts from these proposed actions beyond "profit targets" and "shareholder value".

I'm not saying they shouldn't be done, but we should be cognizant of the impacts of the proposed actions and do our best to bring the affected populations along.

Right, and some of the things that should be done--and ought be done, shouldn't necessarily be done instantly. No one has a magic answer to how we get through next winter or the winter after (in the EU) without Russian gas, for example. That does not mean that our decision to undertake a 40 year project of integration with Russia is irreversible nor that it was wise. It does not mean we cannot chart a new path and that we cannot begin to chart that path now. It does mean that unless we have some real magical big ideas, we aren't going to be able to do everything we want to do instantly. But this should cause a major paradigm shift and shift in direction for the West. If it does not we will see far worse results in the future.

[Jacob]

Yeah but at the end of the day do we want the impact of all that for a few months while we adapt, or we want the impact of having to defend the Baltic States and Poland fighting in a nuclear hellscape?

Absolutely. I just have a preference for acknowledging the costs of our actions.

Because if we just go "don't worry about profit targets" and "this is so we don't have to fight a nuclear war in Poland" and take a decision that leaves us with X "old people freeze to death in their house becaues they can't afford heating" or even "unemployment increases by X%" that's going to make it harder for us to sustain the course (because that'll potentially increase the percentage of the population who become suspectible to "let's not make a big deal about it" arguments which matters in democracies).

So we need to understand the impacts and move to mitigate them, is all.

[Jacob]

Right, and some of the things that should be done--and ought be done, shouldn't necessarily be done instantly. No one has a magic answer to how we get through next winter or the winter after (in the EU) without Russian gas, for example. That does not mean that our decision to undertake a 40 year project of integration with Russia is irreversible nor that it was wise. It does not mean we cannot chart a new path and that we cannot begin to chart that path now. It does mean that unless we have some real magical big ideas, we aren't going to be able to do everything we want to do instantly. But this should cause a major paradigm shift and shift in direction for the West. If it does not we will see far worse results in the future.

Agreed.

[Syt]

That memorial should be made into a urinal.

It often serves that purpose for people in the vicinity at night. I wonder if it will continue to be preserved. Preservation of this and similar memorials for the victors of WW2 were part of the 1955 treaty that restored full sovereignty to Austria. Maybe a good time to re-evaluate.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I hope I'm wrong but I'm getting bad vibes from Biden's comments that he's going to roll out weak as piss sanctions and largely do nothing, hope I'm wrong.