Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Tamas]

To be fair there were plenty of people in the West impressed by how Hitler made the trains run on time back in the day. When you are an authoritarian prick a system like Putin's must look quite attractive.

There is also this: Putin's Russia has set itself up as the bastion of "traditional values", painting the West as a bunch of decadents in decline - for some reason the whole gay thing in particular is a bugbear of theirs.

Lots of Europeans agree, and this makes Russia attractive to them.

Homosexuality in USSR has always been a sign of "decomposition of morals", and was regarded as a behavior that could be spread to others if not contained.  It was even a serious crime throughout its history.  Putin Russia's hang-up about gays is nothing unique, it goes back to USSR.

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

[The Brain]

Is there a gay sex gap?

[DGuller]

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

That's true, in Soviet times USSR was only a step harsher than the West in how it treated homosexuals.  This is why I always bring up the treatment of gays when I caution against cancel culture or having employers police the morality of their employees; some of us personally can still remember the times when being gay was what got you canceled or fired.  Of course, protection of minorities, especially the ones you find icky, is not something that Eastern European culture is generally known for, so that's why the rapid gains in acceptance that homosexuals won in the west have not been mirrored in Eastern Europe, and why government harassment of gays is such a cheap way to win popularity among the people.

[Sheilbh]

Some conspiracy-minded folks would go as far as to suggest that this apparent proximity between the two countries bothers the US and the UK, who have been active in all the countries between DE and RU (Baltics, Poland, Ukraine)... which is why some Baltics have been making bizarre political moves which annoyed Germany and other Europeans. I read lately that the UK wants to create a direct alliance with Poland and Ukraine, could be just a rumour.

Like I said — it's a school of thought which exists in Russia. I don't subscribe to it, but your question reminded me of it

I think there's almost no chance of a formal alliance with Ukraine, but the UK has established very close relationships with Ukraine especially on supporting their military. So we have in the last few months/year alone an agreement on naval cooperation (including a £1.2 billion loan and the supply of several decommissioned Royal Navy vessels), funding for new training and supply for the other bits of the Ukrainian military and, obviously, the current airlift of weapons.

I could see a new alliance/agreement with Poland and the Baltics though. Again there's been lots of UK moves on this over the last year - I think those countries, maybe with the Nordics, have probably been the focus of UK diplomacy and basically every week for the last few months it seems like there's some defence or foreign office minister in the region. I think it's possible, a bit like the new Franco-Greek alliance. And I wonder if it is a wider trend that the old, broad treaty alliance style relations are slowly being supplemented (or maybe challenged or diminished) by sub-alliances: France and Greece, Aukus, the Quad - perhaps soon a Baltics-Poland-UK etc. A bit like the way that the Franco-German motor has powered integration within EU institutions, these may power closer cooperation and military alignment in their wider institutions.

But in part this is just UK strategy. There was a big review - all of the press focused on "Global Britain" and the tilt to the Indo-Pacific - but the core was about Europe and the Atlantic and, in particular, there were lots of references to bolstering Europe's northern and southern flanks, meaning the far north, Baltics and Black Sea. So relatedly just today the UK and Romania have announced just this week that they're upgrading their relationship - there's been agreements on the Black Sea and strategic partnerships before so it's deepening those.

My own view is this is broadly right - about the only area I think the UK government has done well is foreign policy (and, in fairness to them, on vaccines both main campaign and booster rollout eventually). I'd like the UK to add more emphasis on linking up with Western European allies on this, especially France, so I liked Ben Judah's suggestions of backing the French call for a new NATO force in Romania, plus offer joint naval and air force patrols between the UK and France, plus I really like the idea of joining the French in doing a lot on nuclear power as two countries that have recently reactivated their civil nuclear programs.

[Sheilbh]

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

Yeah I think it's interesting now.

Europe was not a great place on gay rights in 1990 - I think that is relevant because I think the ground has shifted within Europe from when Eastern European countries left the Soviet Bloc and looked West as an option, because a lot of Eastern Europe now basically has laws that are broadly equivalent to then.

But there's also the new, weird role homosexuality plays within Europe precisely because of Putin's laws. You see that Ukraine more than anywhere, it's really striking and very weird.

[Tamas]

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

Yeah I think it's interesting now.

Europe was not a great place on gay rights in 1990 - I think that is relevant because I think the ground has shifted within Europe from when Eastern European countries left the Soviet Bloc and looked West as an option, because a lot of Eastern Europe now basically has laws that are broadly equivalent to then.

But there's also the new, weird role homosexuality plays within Europe precisely because of Putin's laws. You see that Ukraine more than anywhere, it's really striking and very weird.

I don't think it is that weird. Cultural acceptance of gays in Eastern Europe must have improved a lot but it's still not full acceptance for a lot of people, I am fairly certain there's a lot of simmering homophobia in the West as well. So, take that, add a volatile frustrated population and politics, and populist politicians who are looking for enemies and scapegoats who are present and cannot defend themselves. Voila.

[Gaijin de Moscu]

I think there's almost no chance of a formal alliance with Ukraine, but the UK has established very close relationships with Ukraine especially on supporting their military. So we have in the last few months/year alone an agreement on naval cooperation (including a £1.2 billion loan and the supply of several decommissioned Royal Navy vessels), funding for new training and supply for the other bits of the Ukrainian military and, obviously, the current airlift of weapons.

I could see a new alliance/agreement with Poland and the Baltics though. Again there's been lots of UK moves on this over the last year - I think those countries, maybe with the Nordics, have probably been the focus of UK diplomacy and basically every week for the last few months it seems like there's some defence or foreign office minister in the region. I think it's possible, a bit like the new Franco-Greek alliance. And I wonder if it is a wider trend that the old, broad treaty alliance style relations are slowly being supplemented (or maybe challenged or diminished) by sub-alliances: France and Greece, Aukus, the Quad - perhaps soon a Baltics-Poland-UK etc. A bit like the way that the Franco-German motor has powered integration within EU institutions, these may power closer cooperation and military alignment in their wider institutions.

But in part this is just UK strategy. There was a big review - all of the press focused on "Global Britain" and the tilt to the Indo-Pacific - but the core was about Europe and the Atlantic and, in particular, there were lots of references to bolstering Europe's northern and southern flanks, meaning the far north, Baltics and Black Sea. So relatedly just today the UK and Romania have announced just this week that they're upgrading their relationship - there's been agreements on the Black Sea and strategic partnerships before so it's deepening those.

My own view is this is broadly right - about the only area I think the UK government has done well is foreign policy (and, in fairness to them, on vaccines both main campaign and booster rollout eventually). I'd like the UK to add more emphasis on linking up with Western European allies on this, especially France, so I liked Ben Judah's suggestions of backing the French call for a new NATO force in Romania, plus offer joint naval and air force patrols between the UK and France, plus I really like the idea of joining the French in doing a lot on nuclear power as two countries that have recently reactivated their civil nuclear programs.

I must say I'm very far from this topic to have formed any meaningful opinion, but definitely enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. Thanks for the insights and taking the time.

[Sheilbh]

I don't think it is that weird. Cultural acceptance of gays in Eastern Europe must have improved a lot but it's still not full acceptance for a lot of people, I am fairly certain there's a lot of simmering homophobia in the West as well. So, take that, add a volatile frustrated population and politics, and populist politicians who are looking for enemies and scapegoats who are present and cannot defend themselves. Voila.

Sorry I don't mean that side of things.

What I meant was the way that being visibly and openly pro-LGBT became a slightly strange signifier of wanting to align with the West and/or rejecting Putin or Russia. For example large and increasing Kyiv Prides often complete with Western politicians (for example the SNP's foreign policy spokesman, Steward MacDonald who has been very vocal on Ukraine) or painting the big arch in Kyiv into a rainbow (with ant-gay groups protesting it). And this is where Eurovision comes in

I'm not sure that it's necessarily good in the long run, but it is really striking.

I must say I'm very far from this topic to have formed any meaningful opinion, but definitely enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. Thanks for the insights and taking the time.

Thanks - aand I enjoy your own take too. But I won't let being far from a topic or ignorant of it stop me from having an opinion, so don't hold back

[Josquius]

All those years sitting next to each other at international conferences finally paying off?

[mongers]

US orders family of embassy staff in Ukraine to leave:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60106416

[Razgovory]

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

That's true, in Soviet times USSR was only a step harsher than the West in how it treated homosexuals.  This is why I always bring up the treatment of gays when I caution against cancel culture or having employers police the morality of their employees; some of us personally can still remember the times when being gay was what got you canceled or fired.  Of course, protection of minorities, especially the ones you find icky, is not something that Eastern European culture is generally known for, so that's why the rapid gains in acceptance that homosexuals won in the west have not been mirrored in Eastern Europe, and why government harassment of gays is such a cheap way to win popularity among the people.

I never thought of Cancel Culture like that.

[Solmyr]

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

That's true, in Soviet times USSR was only a step harsher than the West in how it treated homosexuals.  This is why I always bring up the treatment of gays when I caution against cancel culture or having employers police the morality of their employees; some of us personally can still remember the times when being gay was what got you canceled or fired.  Of course, protection of minorities, especially the ones you find icky, is not something that Eastern European culture is generally known for, so that's why the rapid gains in acceptance that homosexuals won in the west have not been mirrored in Eastern Europe, and why government harassment of gays is such a cheap way to win popularity among the people.

I never thought of Cancel Culture like that.

That's because being fired for being gay and being fired for being a vocal racist homophobe are not the same thing. Just like Nazis wanting to kill Jews and Jews wanting to live are not two sides of a political debate.

[Josquius]

And it's not like Europe was far behind until very recently.

That's true, in Soviet times USSR was only a step harsher than the West in how it treated homosexuals.  This is why I always bring up the treatment of gays when I caution against cancel culture or having employers police the morality of their employees; some of us personally can still remember the times when being gay was what got you canceled or fired.  Of course, protection of minorities, especially the ones you find icky, is not something that Eastern European culture is generally known for, so that's why the rapid gains in acceptance that homosexuals won in the west have not been mirrored in Eastern Europe, and why government harassment of gays is such a cheap way to win popularity among the people.

I never thought of Cancel Culture like that.

That's because being fired for being gay and being fired for being a vocal racist homophobe are not the same thing. Just like Nazis wanting to kill Jews and Jews wanting to live are not two sides of a political debate.

Well... They are....
But if you can't see one side is clearly wrong then that's obviously a problem.

[grumbler]

That's because being fired for being gay and being fired for being a vocal racist homophobe are not the same thing. Just like Nazis wanting to kill Jews and Jews wanting to live are not two sides of a political debate.

Well... They are....
But if you can't see one side is clearly wrong then that's obviously a problem.

They are not at all the same because one is being punished for what they did, and the other is being persecuted for what they are.  People can control what they do, but not what they are.

[Syt]

Vienna architects "Coop Himmelb(l)au" have been sanctioned by Ukraine for building a new opera in Sevastopol. Ukraine protested already in 2020, but the firm ignored it. Quote Wolf D. Prix, founder of the firm: "I don't intend to vacation in Chernobyl, so ..."

State investigators in Austria have examined the case multiple times and have confirmed each time that the contract doesn't violate EU or Austrian law or the sanctions with regards to Crimea.