Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Crazy_Ivan80]

why focus only on the right wing? If Russia is funding groups that are inimical to Western values I'm pretty sure Russia will also be funneling mony to the extreme-left. Why bet on one horse if you can bet on two and thus maximalise the chaos created....

Fair point.

I think, right now and for a while, Putin has been getting more bang for his buck from the far right nationalist crowd. But absolutely, I'm sure they're feeding the extreme left where they can as well. Because yeah, the objective is to pile as much pressure on societal faults where he can.

There is - I think - more affinity between the tankie left and Putin (see Jeremy Corbyn's "no war in Ukraine" participation) than on the identity politics side. I don't know to what degree Putin's been able to feed the identity politics side of the left, and I think they're closer to where the societal fault lines are these days.

yep, absolutely.

[Sheilbh]

The Russians most certainly have their share of agent provocateurs online on the far left.  They definitely helped the Bernie movement, as they right believed that it would be helpful to split the Democrats.  Quite a few pro-Bernie memes have been proven to originate from Russia, IIRC.

Interesting. Jake posted an NYT opinion video of Jonathan Pie summarising the mess in the UK - but it's weird because he started on Russia Today and still doesn't really stray too far on certain issues (and is weirdly spiky about anything adjacent to "cancel culture"). It's odd given the NYT's coverage and focus on Russia meddling to see them basically linking to an opinion piece by someone like that about another country. Similarly I think Tulsi Gabbard's journey is fascinating.

And from what I understand in the UK the intelligence services have found far more evidence and are far more convinced that Russia was trying to meddle in the Scottish referendum than the EU one. I've lots of issues with the SNP but they're not really far-right or left - they're just a little chaos agent. I think celed's said similar about Catalonia.

There is - I think - more affinity between the tankie left and Putin (see Jeremy Corbyn's "no war in Ukraine" participation) than on the identity politics side. I don't know to what degree Putin's been able to feed the identity politics side of the left, and I think they're closer to where the societal fault lines are these days.

Yeah I agree. The Corbyn side is also heavily into identity politics - but there's also George Galloway, the connoisseur's tankie. His latest party, the Worker's Party of Britain, is really interesting. It's everything you'd expect on foreign policy, very strong play for Muslim voters so every issue comes back to Palestine and Kashmir (but silent on Xinjiang). It's very pro-union, very pro-Brexit (before he founded it you had the ultimate red-brown alliance when he endorsed Farage's Brexit Party for the 2019 election) and really anti-identity politics - which is weird in a party that is entirely based on a form of Muslim identity politics (led by a non-Muslim). In a way I think that seems like the more natural bed-fellow for Putin/Russia but it's a fairly bespoke blend

[Jacob]

And from what I understand in the UK the intelligence services have found far more evidence and are far more convinced that Russia was trying to meddle in the Scottish referendum than the EU one. I've lots of issues with the SNP but they're not really far-right or left - they're just a little chaos agent. I think celed's said similar about Catalonia.

That makes sense from an emotional point of view. I think Putin - and many others in Russia - are the most cut up by the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the loss of land and polities. I could absolutely see a motivation to "do unto them what they did unto us" - both from a payback perspective and from a level of impact perspective.

Yeah I agree. The Corbyn side is also heavily into identity politics - but there's also George Galloway, the connoisseur's tankie. His latest party, the Worker's Party of Britain, is really interesting. It's everything you'd expect on foreign policy, very strong play for Muslim voters so every issue comes back to Palestine and Kashmir (but silent on Xinjiang). It's very pro-union, very pro-Brexit (before he founded it you had the ultimate red-brown alliance when he endorsed Farage's Brexit Party for the 2019 election) and really anti-identity politics - which is weird in a party that is entirely based on a form of Muslim identity politics (led by a non-Muslim). In a way I think that seems like the more natural bed-fellow for Putin/Russia but it's a fairly bespoke blend

Yeah... I wonder how much Galloway can rise above "minor irritant" but then again, piling on a bunch of minor irritants can add up.

[Josquius]

I wonder if we're starting to mirror that and engage in our own mimicry.

I think that is the case, I don't think Russia does more than advise and financially support "NGOs" (as in far-right organisations)

why focus only on the right wing? If Russia is funding groups that are inimical to Western values I'm pretty sure Russia will also be funneling mony to the extreme-left. Why bet on one horse if you can bet on two and thus maximalise the chaos created....

(1)Oh. They do that for sure. It's often forgotten their goal isn't for the far right to win so much as to sow division.

(2)However it is the right that they provide the most support to, seeing them as both the most desirable outcome if there must be one and easiest to manipulate. Its also the right that has proven by far the most dangerous this millennium.

1) yes.

2) I wouldn't be so sure of that (re the latter part of your assertion. re the first part it's probably so that currently most support flows rightwards rather than leftwards. But who knows given the left's authoritarian streak has been reasserting itself ever more the last few years. In any case: from a Russian viewpoint it's money well spent).

The (far) right has in most western countries more or less lost control over the administration after the 'March through the institutions' by the left.
Not to mention the fact that over the past decades everything has been shifting to the left, so much so that even center right parties can be considered as leftist. Obviously the left has been shifting leftwards too, to such an extent that they became bobo-left and lost their traditional voting public in many countries. They all shifted to the 'right'.
As for these far-right parties: often enough, if you look at their programmes, especially the economical part of it, they're just as leftist as the left. Often enough the only thing a party needs to be labeled 'far-right' is an opposition to open borders and mass-migration, and all the problems these two things bring with them (Apprently M6 had a 'Zone Interdite' docu about Roubaix, though it seemed a bit more like Afghanistan). But they generally don't get elected to government, and if they do there's not much change. Borders are still open, mass-migration is ongoing.

As it is: the right may get more votes but they can't do much with them, and they certainly don't have control over the administration, education and the cultural parts of society.

That said: mileage may vary based on your biases.

The world has been moving leftwards.... Eh... Ish... On the grand scale.
Though this has been very lop sided in my lifetime. Some great progress in LGBT rights but in many other areas the world has very much been moving to the right.

The right has done a huge amount when they get power. In the UK I really fear we may have become locked in a cycle of the left gets elected, inches the country forward a bit, then a international economic downturn happens that the media pins on them and the right come in to undo what the left did and make things even worse then they were before, rinse and repeat.

Interestingly I have heard this from people with disturbingly fascy inclinations in the past. That such and such isn't actually that far right, it's merely centrist, its just that the world is really far left.... Which shows a massive disconnect from reality in my opinion. It seems to be a common trope of the alt right these days to claim to be rational centrists against some imagined left wing lunacy - cultural Marxism and critical race theory and all those other conspiracies are key to this somehow.

[Tamas]

Bernie Sanders steps in for peace, pleading for the USA not to start a war in Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/08/we-must-do-everything-possible-avoid-enormously-destructive-war-ukraine

Just WTF is wrong with these people.

[The Brain]

Bernie Sanders steps in for peace, pleading for the USA not to start a war in Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/08/we-must-do-everything-possible-avoid-enormously-destructive-war-ukraine

Just WTF is wrong with these people.

Putin mouthpieces are a dime a dozen.

[Admiral Yi]

Fascinating.

Once a peacenik always a peacenik I guess.

[DGuller]

This is why you shouldn't visit USSR and wave your nutsack around to KGB people.  You never know how many years later they're going to find you useful and in what way.

[Josquius]

I don't see the problem with this article at all. We don't want a war in Ukraine do we? We are seeing increasingly idiotic jingoism seemingly eager for a war from many in the US and UK.

Read the article and its clear he isn't a Putin mouth piece. He says Putin is to blame for this and specifically states Ukraine should be defended. That's not what he is arguing against.

[The Brain]

The article is just the usual Putin stuff about "recognize the complex roots of the tensions in the region" and how Russia denying Ukraine security arrangements is "legitimate". Yawn.

Addendum: he thinks Finland having to tread carefully because if its big bully neighbor is a good thing. How about you go fuck yourself, Bernie?

[garbon]

I saw he says Monroe Doctrine is still US policy and the cites quotes from ex-Trump officials.

[Sheilbh]

I wonder what they really think " One senior [Finnish] defence official, who chooses to remain anonymous called Nato membership "a complete no-brainer...Our geostrategic location is shitty. It's really awful. We're pinched in between St Petersburg and Kaliningrad and the Kola Peninsula""

[Grey Fox]

Damn it, Bernie.

Yi's peaceniks comment is right.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't see the problem with this article at all. We don't want a war in Ukraine do we? We are seeing increasingly idiotic jingoism seemingly eager for a war from many in the US and UK.

Read the article and its clear he isn't a Putin mouth piece. He says Putin is to blame for this and specifically states Ukraine should be defended. That's not what he is arguing against.

Can you link me to one of these jingos who is actually hoping Russia invades Ukraine?  I have not seen or read anything like that.

[Admiral Yi]

I saw he says Monroe Doctrine is still US policy and the cites quotes from ex-Trump officials.

The actual Monroe Doctrine--that the US will resist by force any attempts to recolonize countries in the Western Hemisphere which have gained independence--may very well still be US policy.  I've never heard it withdrawn.