News from Iran? Good? Bad? Who knows?

[garbon]

Does EVERYTHING have to be about sex?

Freud said it all was.

[PDH]

Freud said it all was.

Sometimes a box is just a box?

[dps]

Swedish minds are ruled by a jew

It's a tiny realm, but I'm sure that some people would begrudge a Jew even that.

[jimmy olsen]

I wonder what's going to happen. Iran is not China, the previous revolution thrived on martyrdom, if there's a massacre tomorrow it may simply cause greater resistance. It's just too hard to tell.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/19/iran-election-mousavi-ahmadinejad

I speak for Mousavi. And Iran

The man Iranians want as their leader has been silenced. This is what he wants you to know

          o Mohsen Makhmalbaf
          o guardian.co.uk, Friday 19 June 2009 19.00 BST
          o Article history

I have been given the ­responsibility of telling the world what is happening in Iran. The office of Mir Hossein Mousavi, who the Iranian people truly want as their leader, has asked me to do so. They have asked me to tell how Mousavi's headquarters was wrecked by plainclothes police officers. To tell how the commanders of the revolutionary guard ordered him to stay silent. To urge people to take to the streets because Mousavi could not do so directly.

The people in the streets don't want a recount of last week's vote. They want it annulled. This is a crucial moment in our history. Since the 1979 revolution Iran has had 80% dictatorship and 20% democracy. We have dictatorship because one person is in charge, the supreme leader – first Khomeini, now Khamenei. He controls the army and the clergy, the justice system and the media, as well as our oil money.

There are some examples of democracy – reformers elected to parliament, and the very fact that a person like Mousavi could stand for election. But, since the day of the election, this ­element of democracy has vanished. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei announced that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won, and that whoever opposed this will be suppressed – a position he affirmed speaking today in Tehran. People wanted to have demonstrations within the law, but the authorities would not let them. This is the first time we have seen millions on the streets without the permission of the supreme leader.

Now they are gathering to mourn those who have died. The people of Iran have a culture that elevates martyrdom. In the period running up to the revolution, when people were killed at demonstrations, others would gather again in the days following the death. This cycle carried on for six months, and culminated in the revolution. Today they are gathering in Tehran for those who were shot on Tuesday, and if there are more killings, this will continue.

So why do the Iranian people not want Ahmadinejad as their leader? Because he is nothing but a loudspeaker for Khamenei. Under Ahmadinejad, economic problems have grown worse, despite $280bn of oil revenue. Social and literary freedom is much more restricted than under his predecessor, Mohammad Khatami. The world views us as a terrorist nation on the lookout for war. When Khatami was president of Iran, Bush was president of the US. Now the Americans have Obama and we have our version of Bush. We need an Obama who can find solutions for Iran's problems. Although power would remain in the hands of Khamenei, a president like Mousavi could weaken the supreme leader.

Some suggest the protests will fade because nobody is leading them. All those close to Mousavi have been arrested, and his contact with the outside world has been restricted. People rely on word of mouth, because their mobile phones and the internet have been closed down. That they continue to gather shows they want something more than an election. They want freedom, and if they are not granted it we will be faced with another revolution.

Thirty years ago we supported each other. When police used tear gas, fires would be lit to neutralise its effects. People would set their own cars on fire to save others. Since then, the government has tried to separate people from one other. What we lost was our togetherness, and in the past month we have found that again. All the armed forces in Iran are only enough to repress one city, not the whole country. The people are like drops of water coming together in a sea.

People say that Mousavi won't change anything as he is part of the establishment. That is correct to a degree because they wouldn't let anyone who is not in their circle rise to seniority. But not all members of a family are alike, and for Mousavi it is useful to understand how he has changed over time.

Before the revolution, Mousavi was a religious intellectual and an artist, who supported radical change but did not support the mullahs. After the revolution, when all religious intellectuals and even leftists backed Khomeini, he served as prime minister for eight years. The economy was stable, and he did not order the killings of opponents, or become corrupt.

In order to neuralise his power, the position of prime minister was eliminated from the constitution and he was pushed out of politics. So Mousavi returned to the world of artists because in a country where there are no real political parties, artists can act as a party. The artists supported Khatami and now they support Mousavi.

Previously, he was revolutionary, because everyone inside the system was a revolutionary. But now he's a reformer. Now he knows Gandhi – before he knew only Che Guevara. If we gain power through aggression we would have to keep it through aggression. That is why we're having a green revolution, defined by peace and democracy.

[Sheilbh]

The ayatollahs will still be running the country.  Iranians are religious automatons.

Thirty years of tyrannical theocracy are enough to knock the God, let alone the fundementalism, out of almost anybody.  Mosque attendance has gone way down since the Revolution.

I think whatever happens we'll still see an Islamic Republic of Iran and I hope that's the case.

I wonder what's going to happen. Iran is not China, the previous revolution thrived on martyrdom, if there's a massacre tomorrow it may simply cause greater resistance. It's just too hard to tell.

Sorry, I've not read your article because I'm drunk and angry that you're taking on my role.  But the entire basis of Shi'i Islam is martyrdom.  It's a huge factor in that faith. 

Incidentally, I'm currently reading Guests of the Ayatollah, apparently Ahmedinejad didn't want to seige and take-over the American embassy.  He wanted to target the Soviets.

[Queequeg]

I think whatever happens we'll still see an Islamic Republic of Iran and I hope that's the case.

Why?  The clergy have proven themselves to be incompetent kleptocrats of the highest order.  The best possible case for Iran includes an Attaturk style purging of the conservative political clergy.  I understand that there's a peculiar intellectual sympathy for some parts of the Revolution going back to Foucault, but I'd think that the Iran-Iraq war, if not the last 20 years of insanity and incompetence, would have dispelled all of that. 

But the entire basis of Shi'i Islam is martyrdom.  It's a huge factor in that faith. 

Bernard Lewis makes the point that Iranian Shi'ism has always been a syncretic faith, mixing elements of local Christianity, Zurvanite and Traditional Zoroastrianism.  In this case luckily, it combines the Christian-Catholic martyr obsession with the martial characteristics of Islam and the prideful, perhaps even arrogantly Iran-centered nature of Zoroastrianism.   It is the best/worst of all worlds.  I am having trouble thinking of any people on earth more likely to be spurred on, rather than silenced, even by large scale repression. 

Sorry, I've not read your article because I'm drunk and angry that you're taking on my role

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

He wanted to target the Soviets.

Another world beater by Happy New Years.  Isn't that how nuclear war starts in Threads? 

[jimmy olsen]

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

Your's?

[Queequeg]

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

Your's?

I'd say I am offended, but I'm close enough to being Gay, Catholic and British that I can understand why people make that mistake.  Even in person, sometimes, as my accent is weird. 
I meant, as Sheilbh no doubt guessed, Andrew Sullivan, the other Gay, British, Catholic Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as obsessively as possible without knowing Farsi.

[jimmy olsen]

Gay, Catholic, British Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as closely as possible without speaking Farsi? Whose role are you taking? 

Your's?

I'd say I am offended, but I'm close enough to being Gay, Catholic and British that I can understand why people make that mistake.  Even in person, sometimes, as my accent is weird. 
I meant, as Sheilbh no doubt guessed, Andrew Sullivan, the other Gay, British, Catholic Persophile following the Revolution in Iran as obsessively as possible without knowing Farsi.

I was just teasing ya.

[jimmy olsen]

What the hell happened to Sullivan's site?

[Josquius]

So Britain are the most evil of evils, I'm honored 
I saw a documentary a few months ago about Iranian-British relations. Apparently they're as crazy as the Chinese when it comes to thinking its still the 19th century as far as Britain is concerned. I wonder how they fell about Russia though....

So, because Christianity is a Jewish invention, then as far as spiritual matters are concerned, the Swedish minds are ruled by a jew? 

I strongly suspect that you haven't given this argument a great deal of thought.

Come on, it makes sense. Christianity is a lot less Jewish than Islam is Arab. The only thing that could come close in Christianity is old school Catholicism and saying that those who follow it are ruled by the evil Roman conquerors. Islam is a very, very Arab thing, so Iran being so Muslim is a little bit strange.

[grumbler]

Come on, it makes sense. Christianity is a lot less Jewish than Islam is Arab. The only thing that could come close in Christianity is old school Catholicism and saying that those who follow it are ruled by the evil Roman conquerors. Islam is a very, very Arab thing, so Iran being so Muslim is a little bit strange.

Shia islam is a lot less "Arab" than Sunni Islam, though.  I would agree (and, in fact, teach) that many of the values of Islam are values developed by the Bedouin due to the climate in which they lived.  However, to say that Iranians are Arabs (or should be thought of as Arabs) when they are so clearly not (nor are the Pakistanis, the Indonesians, etc) simply because they are Muslim is silly.  Its like saying the Russians should be considered Greeks because they are Orthodox.

[Martinus]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'd consider the situation a success if the only positive result is seeing Khameini and Ahmenmuppet hanged from a lamppost.

Btw, has anyone heard that the riot police apparently switched sides? I just saw that on a Polish blog but it didn't seem very credible.

[jimmy olsen]

From what I've seen they're using tear gas and water cannons on the protesters.

[citizen k]

Witnesses report fierce clashes on Tehran streets
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI and NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran – Police beat protesters and fired tear gas and water cannons at thousands who rallied Saturday in open defiance of Iran's clerical government, sharply escalating the most serious internal conflict since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Eyewitnesses described fierce clashes near Revolution Square in central Tehran after some 3,000 protesters, many wearing black, chanted "Death to the dictator!" and "Death to dictatorship!" Police fired tear gas, water cannons and guns but it was not immediately clear if they were firing live ammunition.

English-language state TV confirmed that police had used batons and other non-lethal weapons against what it called unauthorized demonstrations.

The witnesses told The Associated Press that between 50 and 60 protesters were seriously beaten by police and pro-government militia and taken to Imam Khomeini hospital in central Tehran. People could be seen dragging away comrades bloodied by baton strikes.
Some protesters appeared to be fighting back, setting fire to militia members' motorcycles in streets near Freedom Square, witnesses said.
Helicopters hovered over central Tehran. Ambulance sirens echoed through the streets and black smoke rose over the city.

Tehran University was cordoned off by police and militia while students inside the university chanted "death to the dictator!" witnesses said. Police and militia barred people from entering Freedom Street, which runs from Freedom Square to Revolution Square, to prevent a massive gathering, the witnesses said.Amateur video showed dozens of Iranians running down a street after police fired tear gas at them. Shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is Great" — could be heard on the video, which could not be independently verified.The English-language state channel said a blast at the Tehran shrine of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini had killed one person and wounded two but the report could not be independently confirmed due to government restrictions on independent reporting. The shrine is about 12 miles (20 kilometers) south of central Tehran.
Hundreds of thousands of supporters of reformist presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi took to the streets for four consecutive days this week demanding the government cancel and rerun June 12 elections that ended with a declaration of overwhelming victory for hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Mousavi says he won and Ahmadinejad stole the election through widespread fraud.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei sided firmly with Ahmadinejad on Friday, saying the vote reflected popular will and ordering opposition leaders to end street protests or be held responsible for any "bloodshed and chaos" to come.

The statement effectively closed the door to Mousavi's demand for a new election, ratcheting up the possibility of a violent confrontation.

Police had clashed with protesters around Tehran immediately after the vote, and gunfire from a militia compound left at least seven dead, but the full force of the state remained in check until Saturday.

Web sites run by Mousavi supporters had said he planned to post a message, but there was no statement by the time of the planned street protests at 4 p.m. (7:30 a.m. EDT, 1130 GMT). Some pro-reform Web sites called for people to take to the streets.

Witnesses said protesters wore black as a symbol of mourning for the dead and the allegedly stolen election, with wristbands in green, the emblem of Mousavi's "Green Wave" movement.

Tehran Province Police Chief Ahmad Reza Radan said that police would "crack down on any gathering or protest rally which are being planned by some people." The head of the State Security Council also reiterated the warning to Mousavi that he would be held responsible if he encouraged street protests.

Eyewitnesses said thousands of police and plainclothes militia members filled the streets to prevent rallies. Fire trucks took up positions in Revolution Square and riot police surrounded Tehran University, the site of recent clashes between protesters and security forces, one witness said.

All witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared government reprisals for speaking with the press. Iranian authorities have placed strict limits on the ability of foreign media to cover recent events, banning reporting from the street and allowing only phone interviews and information from officials sources such as state TV.

The government has blocked Web sites such as BBC Farsi, Facebook, Twitter and several pro-Mousavi sites that are conduits for Iranians to tell the world about protests and violence.

Text messaging has not been working in Iran since last week, and cell phone service in Tehran is frequently down.

Mousavi and the two other candidates who ran against Ahmadinejad had been invited to meet with Iran's Guardian Council, an unelected body of 12 clerics and Islamic law experts close to Khamenei that oversees elections. Its spokesman told state TV that Mousavi and the reformist candidate Mahdi Karroubi did not attend.

The council has said it was prepared to conduct a limited recount of ballots at sites where candidates claim irregularities but Mousavi's supporters did not withdraw his demands for a new election.

A spokesman for Mousavi said Friday the opposition leader was not under arrest but was not allowed to speak to journalists or stand at a microphone at rallies. Iranian filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf told the AP from Paris it's even becoming difficult to reach people close to Mousavi. He said he has not heard from Mousavi's camp since Khamenei's address.

Both houses of the U.S. Congress approved a resolution on Friday condemning "the ongoing violence" by the Iranian government and its suppression of the Internet and cell phones.

In an interview taped Friday with CBS, Obama said he is very concerned by the "tenor and tone" of Khamenei's comments. He also said that how Iran's leaders "approach and deal with people who are, through peaceful means, trying to be heard" will signal "what Iran is and is not."