Antony Beevor's new book, D-Day. Who's going to get it?

[Berkut]

If the average Allied division lost 6,000 men during the 90 days from June 6th to September 6th, its infantry probably was almost bled white. Of course, if the average German division lost 7,000 men during the same period, there was pretty much no division left by September!

Everything I've read of the time frame in question suggests that that is exactly the case - among combat infantryman, the replacement rate was near or greater than 100% for the divisions in active combat.

And yeah, the German divisions involved were largely destroyed in the fighting in many cases.

The German Army in Normandy was a very weird mix of crap units, excellent units, some average units, and some fanatical, well equipped, but raw troops. I am sure casualty rates were high, but how high likely varied wildly.

[Warspite]

If the average Allied division lost 6,000 men during the 90 days from June 6th to September 6th, its infantry probably was almost bled white. Of course, if the average German division lost 7,000 men during the same period, there was pretty much no division left by September!

Everything I've read of the time frame in question suggests that that is exactly the case - among combat infantryman, the replacement rate was near or greater than 100% for the divisions in active combat.

And yeah, the German divisions involved were largely destroyed in the fighting in many cases.

The German Army in Normandy was a very weird mix of crap units, excellent units, some average units, and some fanatical, well equipped, but raw troops. I am sure casualty rates were high, but how high likely varied wildly.

I can agree with this.

From what I've read, the casualty rates for British divisions were appallingly high. The terrain of Normandy does not really suit itself to manoeuvre warfare and really does favour the defender.

I read an interesting statistic that despite being much slower than Shermans and Cromwells, the rate of advance of UK & Canuck infantry accompanied by Churchills was actually faster, simply because the heavier Churchill was more able to withstand what the defenders could throw at it.

[Neil]

I'll get it if it's in paperback.
Any historian that puts Monty properly in his place as a colossal assfuckstick earns my money.

You do realize that the reason he took so long to take Caen was that he took a timeout to rescue some kittens that the Germans had put up a tree, right?

[Razgovory]

I can agree with this.

From what I've read, the casualty rates for British divisions were appallingly high. The terrain of Normandy does not really suit itself to manoeuvre warfare and really does favour the defender.

I read an interesting statistic that despite being much slower than Shermans and Cromwells, the rate of advance of UK & Canuck infantry accompanied by Churchills was actually faster, simply because the heavier Churchill was more able to withstand what the defenders could throw at it.
[/quote]

The German divisions didn't come out much better.  They took very heavy losses.  The loss ratio of Allied and German units did favor the germans but not enough to make it that much worth while.  I'm not sure if it was so much good defensive terrain as it was close fighting terrain.  In close quarters battles casualties are high on both sides.

[Darth Wagtaros]

If the average Allied division lost 6,000 men during the 90 days from June 6th to September 6th, its infantry probably was almost bled white. Of course, if the average German division lost 7,000 men during the same period, there was pretty much no division left by September!

Everything I've read of the time frame in question suggests that that is exactly the case - among combat infantryman, the replacement rate was near or greater than 100% for the divisions in active combat.

And yeah, the German divisions involved were largely destroyed in the fighting in many cases.

The German Army in Normandy was a very weird mix of crap units, excellent units, some average units, and some fanatical, well equipped, but raw troops. I am sure casualty rates were high, but how high likely varied wildly.

if I'm not mistaken causalities among American divisions ran to 150% in some cases, a few even 200%.  So there was a very high turnover.

While many of those were wounded and could be returned to the fighting the Army that invaded Germany wasn't really the same one that invaded France. 

[saskganesh]

If the average Allied division lost 6,000 men during the 90 days from June 6th to September 6th, its infantry probably was almost bled white. Of course, if the average German division lost 7,000 men during the same period, there was pretty much no division left by September!

Everything I've read of the time frame in question suggests that that is exactly the case - among combat infantryman, the replacement rate was near or greater than 100% for the divisions in active combat.

And yeah, the German divisions involved were largely destroyed in the fighting in many cases.

The German Army in Normandy was a very weird mix of crap units, excellent units, some average units, and some fanatical, well equipped, but raw troops. I am sure casualty rates were high, but how high likely varied wildly.

if I'm not mistaken causalities among American divisions ran to 150% in some cases, a few even 200%.  So there was a very high turnover.

While many of those were wounded and could be returned to the fighting the Army that invaded Germany wasn't really the same one that invaded France.

well yes, but the turnover is a bit misleading as green/rookie/new guys had a higher chance of becoming casualties then vets. just the odds. so some of those divisions, with 150-200% statistical casualty rates, would still have cores that had been in Overlord.

[Berkut]

well yes, but the turnover is a bit misleading as green/rookie/new guys had a higher chance of becoming casualties then vets. just the odds. so some of those divisions, with 150-200% statistical casualty rates, would still have cores that had been in Overlord.

While it is true that the casualty rate for new recruits was much higher, it doesn't really follow that the casualty rates for the experienced guys was low - just lower.

You still saw very few people who landed in Normandy make it to the end of the war without being wounded at some point - I would guess the odds were extremely low, among combat infantryman.

Just look at something like Band of Brothers - what percentage of those men made it from D-Day to V-Day without being out of action for some period of time with a wound? 10%? 20%?

[saskganesh]

yes, the combat casualties of vets was relatively lower. yes, they were still high.

most of those lucky vets probably got promoted quickly, as in BoB.

[Admiral Yi]

Just look at something like Band of Brothers - what percentage of those men made it from D-Day to V-Day without being out of action for some period of time with a wound? 10%? 20%?

The only one I can remember is the guy who showed up for the Raid into Germany episode.

[saskganesh]

Just look at something like Band of Brothers - what percentage of those men made it from D-Day to V-Day without being out of action for some period of time with a wound? 10%? 20%?

The only one I can remember is the guy who showed up for the Raid into Germany episode.

Winters (I think he was wounded), Spiers, Nixon

hmm, Malarkey...

[Donald Malareky) became a member of "Easy" Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. He went to England in 1943 to participate in the largest amphibious invasion in history: D-Day. In the darkness of the morning of D-Day, Malarkey parachuted into France with his unit. Later that day, he received the Bronze Star for his heroism in a pitched battle to knock out four German 105 mm artillery battery, an action now called the Brécourt Manor Assault.

He fought for twenty-three days in Normandy, nearly eighty in Holland, thirty-nine in the Battle of Bastogne in Belgium, and nearly thirty more in and around Haugenau, France, and the Ruhr Pocket in Germany. He was promoted to sergeant before Operation Market Garden. Never seriously wounded, Malarkey served more time on the front lines than any other member of Easy Company.

[Kleves]

While many of those were wounded and could be returned to the fighting the Army that invaded Germany wasn't really the same one that invaded France.

It didn't help that the American army dumped all of its worst manpower into the infantry.

[Kleves]

Any historian that puts Monty properly in his place as a colossal assfuckstick earns my money.

[Max Hastings]
But Monty, unlike the Americans, could read a battlefield. That makes him better.
[/Max Hastings]

[Berkut]

Any historian that puts Monty properly in his place as a colossal assfuckstick earns my money.

[Max Hastings]
But Monty, unlike the Americans, could read a battlefield. That makes him better.
[/Max Hastings]

[Ed Anger]

Ah, fuck it. Pre-ordered along with the Tex Avery Droopy DVD set.

[Grey Fox]

Shifty Powers wasn't wounded & made his way from D-day to V-day as a Private.