The Vietnam War

[Malthus]

The land reform in North Vietnam (among other things) in the 1950s I think makes it very clear his party was truly communist and not available for an American alliance.

The first part yes...the second no.  Heck Mao wanted an American alliance but he was a Communist of the worst kind.

There was no way for us to ally with a communist government at the time. Who would we be allied against? How would that help us draw a hard line against communism globally as we tried to keep other countries from going wobbly?

For that and so many other reasons, if Ho was a communist that meant he wasn't available for an alliance.

I know it was not politically possible at the time, but pretty well all of the communist countries in SE Asia were on bad terms with each other - and indeed eventually fought wars against each other: Vietnam with Cambodia, China with Vietnam.

A US uninterested in ideology (if such were possible) and uncaring about the human cost of such regimes would have done better, in great-power stakes, playing one off against the other, that forcing them all to ally with each other.

[Valmy]

I know it was not politically possible at the time, but pretty well all of the communist countries in SE Asia were on bad terms with each other - and indeed eventually fought wars against each other: Vietnam with Cambodia, China with Vietnam.

A US uninterested in ideology (if such were possible) and uncaring about the human cost of such regimes would have done better, in great-power stakes, playing one off against the other, that forcing them all to ally with each other.

Yes...hence why it took Nixon to do this.  It would have spared us a lot of trouble to do this back in 1946 but it was not going to happen.

[Viking]

France was crippled in 46 and wholy dependent on Marshall Plan money to fight its colonial wars.

Yep.  Money well spent.

well, it was either sign the SS up to the Foreign legion or have them help Gregory Peck clone der Führer, so I say money well spent.

[alfred russel]

The land reform in North Vietnam (among other things) in the 1950s I think makes it very clear his party was truly communist and not available for an American alliance.

The first part yes...the second no.  Heck Mao wanted an American alliance but he was a Communist of the worst kind.

There was no way for us to ally with a communist government at the time. Who would we be allied against? How would that help us draw a hard line against communism globally as we tried to keep other countries from going wobbly?

For that and so many other reasons, if Ho was a communist that meant he wasn't available for an alliance.

I know it was not politically possible at the time, but pretty well all of the communist countries in SE Asia were on bad terms with each other - and indeed eventually fought wars against each other: Vietnam with Cambodia, China with Vietnam.

A US uninterested in ideology (if such were possible) and uncaring about the human cost of such regimes would have done better, in great-power stakes, playing one off against the other, that forcing them all to ally with each other.

We are mixing different periods. The discussion about allying with Ho is relevant only pre Vietnam War - the 40s and 50s. Communist China and Ho were on close terms at those points, and Cambodia and Laos weren't communist. The wars were post Vietnam War.

Communist China and Ho were of course pushed together by US policy at the time. However, communism in Asia was expansionary (the Korean War was during that time period) and almost all of Southeast Asia was wobbly regarding Communism.

I just don't see any opportunity to keep an alliance with Ho during the 50s. Once you conceded Vietnam to Communists, how could you rely on them not to intervene on behalf of other communists in nearby conflicts? Who could they be played off against? The only other communist country was China, and Vietnam is small potatoes next to them.

[derspiess]

Yes, they hate each other, but wartime makes strange bedfellows.  The Chinese rotated over 300,000 PLA anti-aircraft, engineering and logistical troops through North Vietnam from 1965 to 1968, with the most deployed at 170,000 in 1967, with a total of 1,500 casualties to US firepower by 1973. 

And all the Chinese-made AK & SKS rifles that turned up in South Vietnam didn't come from nowhere.

[CountDeMoney]

They all wound up in your gun safe, though. 

[KRonn]

Right... here are the opening lines to the Vietnamese declaration of independence:

The compatriots of the entire country,
All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free...

According to the wikipedia entry on Ho Chi Minh, he reportedly petitioned Harry S. Truman for support for Vietnamese independence after the August '45 revolution.

It's not inconceivable that had Truman supported Ho Chi Minh and Vietnam at that point he could have turned the country down a different road. I'd probably still be full of factional massacres and end up as some sort of dictatorship, but it may have ended up more friendly to US interests.

... it's all alt history of course.

It's likely that the US wouldn't go along with this as it was against French interests, and also because of the growing rift between Communist ideology and the non-Commies.

[derspiess]

They all wound up in your gun safe, though. 

I wish.  Damned things are expensive these days since they hadn't been imported in ages.

There are some Chinese-made SKSes on the market now that they imported from Albania, but there's no way I'm paying $300 for a beat to shit rifle like that with no finish and all sorts of dings in the stock.

[Malthus]

The land reform in North Vietnam (among other things) in the 1950s I think makes it very clear his party was truly communist and not available for an American alliance.

The first part yes...the second no.  Heck Mao wanted an American alliance but he was a Communist of the worst kind.

There was no way for us to ally with a communist government at the time. Who would we be allied against? How would that help us draw a hard line against communism globally as we tried to keep other countries from going wobbly?

For that and so many other reasons, if Ho was a communist that meant he wasn't available for an alliance.

I know it was not politically possible at the time, but pretty well all of the communist countries in SE Asia were on bad terms with each other - and indeed eventually fought wars against each other: Vietnam with Cambodia, China with Vietnam.

A US uninterested in ideology (if such were possible) and uncaring about the human cost of such regimes would have done better, in great-power stakes, playing one off against the other, that forcing them all to ally with each other.

We are mixing different periods. The discussion about allying with Ho is relevant only pre Vietnam War - the 40s and 50s. Communist China and Ho were on close terms at those points, and Cambodia and Laos weren't communist. The wars were post Vietnam War.

Communist China and Ho were of course pushed together by US policy at the time. However, communism in Asia was expansionary (the Korean War was during that time period) and almost all of Southeast Asia was wobbly regarding Communism.

I just don't see any opportunity to keep an alliance with Ho during the 50s. Once you conceded Vietnam to Communists, how could you rely on them not to intervene on behalf of other communists in nearby conflicts? Who could they be played off against? The only other communist country was China, and Vietnam is small potatoes next to them.

The Vietnamese and Chinese have been enemies since forever. Their alliance was purely one of convenience, and Vietnam could easily have been allied with the US against China (or vice versa). I agree that this was politically impossible for the US to do, because of domestic politics. 

[Jacob]

He also referenced the declaration of the rights of man, but I don't think he was a fan of the French or wanted an alliance with them (considering he was fighting them). I think he was just playing public relations. The land reform in North Vietnam (among other things) in the 1950s I think makes it very clear his party was truly communist and not available for an American alliance.

Well, I think the critical moment - if it was for real - was 45-46 or so. Basically, at that time if the US had backed Ho it may have been able to influence how things went after that. Certainly by the 50s, Ho was pretty committed to the Soviet way of doing things. The "what if" revolves around the degree to which Ho's hardline Communism was the result of the people he got into bed with (the USSR vs the USA) versus to what degree it was "his true nature".

[Barrister]

He also referenced the declaration of the rights of man, but I don't think he was a fan of the French or wanted an alliance with them (considering he was fighting them). I think he was just playing public relations. The land reform in North Vietnam (among other things) in the 1950s I think makes it very clear his party was truly communist and not available for an American alliance.

Well, I think the critical moment - if it was for real - was 45-46 or so. Basically, at that time if the US had backed Ho it may have been able to influence how things went after that. Certainly by the 50s, Ho was pretty committed to the Soviet way of doing things. The "what if" revolves around the degree to which Ho's hardline Communism was the result of the people he got into bed with (the USSR vs the USA) versus to what degree it was "his true nature".

But in 45-46 not only was Europe coming under communist domination, but a civil war was raging in China as well.

[frunk]

In 45-46 it was far from clear that the Communists would win in China.  Also I think Ho was enough of a pragmatist at that point that he didn't particularly care if he was a leftist dictator or a rightist one.

[Beenherebefore]

There was very little chance of Western Europe ever being taken over by communists. That's just your inner Joe McCarthy talking.

The domino theory that so brilliantly said the US must engage in Vietnam is only topped by the Soviet "let's invade Afghanistan" in its silliness as a theory for foreign policy.

[Admiral Yi]

Ho joined the Communist Party when he was a student in France, IIRC.  There is no evidence I'm aware of that shows evolution in his thinking about the role of the workers' state and the party after 1945.

Norgy (change your fucking nick back): the communist parties of France and Italy had huge memberships prior to 56 and significant electoral success.

[Beenherebefore]

In 45-46 it was far from clear that the Communists would win in China.  Also I think Ho was enough of a pragmatist at that point that he didn't particularly care if he was a leftist dictator or a rightist one.

Disagree. Ho Chi Minh was trained and educated in Moscow. Whatever pragmatism he possessed did not translate into much action.
He was a communist before the war. Fidel wasn't before the Cuban revolution.