The new Eurosceptics

[Tamas]

It was funny, but as with the Times story on his expenses, UKIP went on the attack saying it showed the establishment was rattled. Since then they've been doing very well in the Euro polls, over 30% for the most part.

I guess I must just accept that rampant dumb populism is the flavour of the era and I shall not find refugee from it.

[Syt]

It was funny, but as with the Times story on his expenses, UKIP went on the attack saying it showed the establishment was rattled. Since then they've been doing very well in the Euro polls, over 30% for the most part.

I guess I must just accept that rampant dumb populism is the flavour of the era and I shall not find refugee from it.

A recent poll in Austria revealed that while 85% agreed that democracy is the most preferable form of government, 30% think that a strong leader not tied down by parliament and procedures would be a good thing to have. This preference was much higher among the less educated and FPÖ voters.

[Agelastus]

And so it was with some embarrassment that Mr. Farage faced questions about employing his German wife as his secretary. "You've warned about Europeans taking British jobs," said Nick Robinson of the BBC. "Is your wife taking someone else's job?"

It is amazing how all of these people around the world are hypocrites.

She married a Briton; in my book that qualifies her as British. It doesn't matter that she was born German or, no doubt, still holds a German passport. And I rather suspect that I'm not alone in this opinion.

That someone thought that attacking a man for employing his wife in a society that's supposedly still based around families would lead to a big hit on his political support just shows how stupid some of his detractors are. Especially as employing family members is a habit members of all the major parties have.

They'd have been better off hunting down more unacceptable candidates/party members etc. to pillory - although as recent weeks have shown that's not a problem only affecting UKIP.

[Tamas]

 

[Tamas]

At any rate, I am trying to avoid being a smartass about UK politics (for now).

If I wasn't living here I would be inclined to see the UKIP have their way and lead the country out of the EU, for all the ensuing schadenfreude I could have.

Most countries in the world would do everything to have their own London, this great magnet for talented and hard working people from across the world, who (as in London en masse) then proceed to carry the British economy on their back. What the Brits do? Moan.

[garbon]

I echo your sentiment.

[Tamas]

It is fascinating how part rhetorics/methods, and supporter attitudes/reactions match between UKIP and Jobbik. Only difference is that UKIP is not making thinly veiled racist and anti-Semitic remarks as part of party communication.
But clearly they grow out of the same general sentiment (and I only partly mean the racism)

[Valmy]

My favorite criticism of the EU by skeptics is that the EU is undemocratic.  Well that is true to a large extent, the EU is a league of sovereign states not a government of people for the most part.  But of course they are not interested in it becoming democratic, that is the last thing they want.  If it was democratic it would have a shitload more power and legitimacy.  The primary way to keep the EU from becoming too intrusive and less powerful to make sure it remains undemocratic so I find it a weird criticism.

[Agelastus]

Roll your eyes if you wish; I've got no problem with immigration, nor with people marrying Britons and becoming British. I just want my government to be in charge of it not somebody in Europe who I feel no emotional or practical connection to.

And if you will recall UKIP was the first party to say we should take in Syrian refugees.

There is, I cannot deny, an unfortunate trend for some of the less desirable elements of British society to vote UKIP; but on the other hand this means they're not voting for the BNP which is a plus in anyone's book.

Most countries in the world would do everything to have their own London, this great magnet for talented and hard working people from across the world, who (as in London en masse) then proceed to carry the British economy on their back.

Those of us who appreciate it tend to be worried that France and Germany (who possibly don't really understand it but would still love to have some of it in their own countries) are trying to destroy it.

I don't happen to subscribe to the more extreme versions of this fear, but there's certainly been some unfortunate moves by the EU in the last few years.

What the Brits do? Moan.

Be fair, Tamas...Brits moan about everything!  Take the weather - it can never be just right, it's always "too hot", "too cold", "too dry", "too wet", "not like it was when I was a kid". etc. etc.

Moaning is our national pastime.

[Tamas]

Fair points, however I believe that it is a recurring historical error of the right (side of political spectrum) to be acceptable to the fringe elements of their own supporter base. The lunatic ones. They always think they can control them, but they can never. Just look at how they are destroying the Republicans in America.

[Sheilbh]

It is fascinating how part rhetorics/methods, and supporter attitudes/reactions match between UKIP and Jobbik. Only difference is that UKIP is not making thinly veiled racist and anti-Semitic remarks as part of party communication.
But clearly they grow out of the same general sentiment (and I only partly mean the racism)

Surely the lack of racism and anti-semitism is a pretty important distinguishing feature though

I'm surprised you're so anti-Ukip. Their leadership and activist base are probably the most libertarian party around. They want to deregulate everything even more, start introducing charges for the NHS, limit the welfare state. Nigel Farage claims to be the heir to Thatcher.

It'll be interesting if the Revolt on the Right guys research is interesting because you'll have Ukip voters who are pretty left-wing but an activist base and leadership that's very laissez faire. Maybe the Labour campaign attacking Ukip as more Thatcherite than the Tories could work.

My favorite criticism of the EU by skeptics is that the EU is undemocratic.  Well that is true to a large extent, the EU is a league of sovereign states not a government of people for the most part. 

The EU is substantially more than a league of sovereign states. That's the point of Europe.

I think context matters with the anti-democratic problems. It seems to me that criticism comes most from the UK, where there's a tradition of Parliamentary sovereignty so the idea that something could overrule Parliament's a big shift to our constitution, and Germany where I think there's a worry the Constitutional Court have mentioned about the power and responsibilities of the EU without a sufficient democratic element.

Personally I think they're overblown, but Europe's in a difficult place. On the one hand I think there needs to be more democracy as the EU develops - especially with the steps needed in the Eurozone. On the other hand there's still no European demos so people don't vote in EU elections, when they do it's about domestic politics and often full of protests votes which is partly why we could see up to 30% of the European Parliament being Eurosceptics. I don't know how you get around that, maybe more involvement of national Parliaments?

Most countries in the world would do everything to have their own London, this great magnet for talented and hard working people from across the world, who (as in London en masse) then proceed to carry the British economy on their back. What the Brits do? Moan.

Yeah, so surely increasing Euro-regulation of the City is part of the argument for leaving? For example the EU power to ban short selling, the Eurozone financial transactions tax and the ECB clearing house location policy are all worrying signs (though the last two haven't fully been settled by the courts).

I think there's a lot to David Owen's argument:
http://quarterly.demos.co.uk/article/issue-2/the-path-not-taken/

[Josquius]

Yeah, that's the scary part about UKIP. It's not that they're racists, it's that they hide behind their populist sort of acceptable brand of anti-immigration pseudo-racism, some pretty disturbing Thatcherite policies. That's what common people need to be made aware of.

[Admiral Yi]

   In the same that Hitler, behind his semi-acceptable wars of conquest and genocide, hid some dangerous statist economic policies.

[Razgovory]

 

[grumbler]

  In the same that Hitler, behind his semi-acceptable wars of conquest and genocide, hid some dangerous statist economic policies.