Liberation Theology is in - should Yi be concerned?

[Beenherebefore]

I wonder what realtors would make of the prospect of selling the St. Peter's basilica.

Might make for an interesting flyer.

[Berkut]

Can the Catholic Church make the argument today that they are in fact already the "poor among the poor"?

What is the salary of a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope?

Do they live a life of poverty themselves, ignoring for the moment the wealth the church itself has amassed?

[Sheilbh]

That is so convenient for them. They get to preach about people being poor, but they don't have to care about mundane material stuff (obviously being poor have nothing to do with the material world, right). But not having to care apparently also means that they can hoard wealth for the church and themselves.

The Church is the world's largest educational and social welfare charity - by some distance. The costs of the Vatican are relatively small for a nation state, administrative centre for a global organisation and owner of several priceless (and uninsured) works of art that need to be preserved.

Seriously dude. Financial gamesmanship? Giving aid for development in the 3rd world using Vatican resources, by forgoing profit, is really that out of line with the loudly proclaimed aims of the Pope?

The Vatican already gives help to the developing world. The Vatican bank is a non-profit already.

Tell the pope that. Personally, I think that you are right, and that this will be a'business as usual" pope in actions, even if his preaching isn't the usual fare.

As ever with the Catholic Church ignorant reporting creates false impressions. This is Francis in Evangelii Gaudium:

Since this Exhortation is addressed to members of the Catholic Church, I want to say, with regret, that the worst discrimination which the poor suffer is the lack of spiritual care. The great majority of the poor have a special openness to the faith; they need God and we must not fail to offer them his friendship, his blessing, his word, the celebration of the sacraments and a journey of growth and maturity in the faith. Our preferential option for the poor must mainly translate into a privileged and preferential religious care.

Let's just say the Pope decided to put the Vatican up for sale.  Who would want to buy it, and who could afford to buy it?

I think someone estimated it would cost $500 billion. Which is enough to increase the 1.2 billion earning under $1.50 a day to $2.50 a day, for a year.

[Tamas]

Since this Exhortation is addressed to members of the Catholic Church, I want to say, with regret, that the worst discrimination which the poor suffer is the lack of spiritual care. The great majority of the poor have a special openness to the faith; they need God and we must not fail to offer them his friendship, his blessing, his word, the celebration of the sacraments and a journey of growth and maturity in the faith. Our preferential option for the poor must mainly translate into a privileged and preferential religious care.

Well yeah. Let us concentrate on stuff that will make them listen to the church but will keep them in a position of dependency.

The clergy in general, and populist politicians are directly interested in the maintenance of poverty and illiteracy, because those are the source of their power. As such, saying stuff like that is hardly revolutionary.

[Beenherebefore]

Can the Catholic Church make the argument today that they are in fact already the "poor among the poor"?

What is the salary of a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope?

Do they live a life of poverty themselves, ignoring for the moment the wealth the church itself has amassed?

Don't priests mostly have free housing etc with all the property amassed throughout the years? With some monetary assistance from the diocese and something extra if they teach. I have no idea about the higher hierarchies of the clergy. But vows of poverty do exist.
"Poor among the poor" probably only refers to personal property, not the Church as such, which is for the glory of God. Probably. Heck if I know. I've spent most of my life not believing in anything, and I am not going to start now.

[Razgovory]

And this is why Libertarians should be hunted down and killed.

[Sheilbh]

Can the Catholic Church make the argument today that they are in fact already the "poor among the poor"?

What is the salary of a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope?

In the UK Catholic clergy are generally the worst paid. The average salary is between £18-25 000 and in general comes from the parish itself. But there is some equalisation across the diocese. So a priest of a poor parish of mostly recent immigrants will have his money topped up by the diocese (taking from richer parishes).

I'm not sure about Bishops. Obviously they all get housing and (normally) a vehicle. Most Bishops and certainly most Popes haven't been personally wealthy though. I don't actually think they get paid at all because they're in the job until death (or retirement now). It's not a job to earn money from - Pope Pius X left a request on his death in 1914 that the Vatican grant his two sisters a small monthly allowance because he had nothing of his own to leave.

Do they live a life of poverty themselves, ignoring for the moment the wealth the church itself has amassed?

Most Priests have to live a fitting life, which isn't poverty but basically means they can't be wealthy.

Religious orders - monks and Jesuits etc - do vow to poverty. In the UK that means they don't have any personal possessions, those belong to the community. Most monks don't receive money unless they need it. Many religious priests receive a stipend of £50-100 a month, for personal expenses.

Good stewardship ensures that the church will be able to assist the poor in future generations. Having a church asset fire sale will help the poor in the short run, but not the long run. And interestingly, I found an article that suggested that the Vatican was running a deficit. That article is from 1987, so it is certainly dated, but it contradicts the claim the church simply hordes wealth.

The Vatican was running a deficit until 2010. By all accounts the Church doesn't have a huge amount of cash reserves. It's got property and art.

[crazy canuck]

The clergy in general, and populist politicians are directly interested in the maintenance of poverty and illiteracy, because those are the source of their power. As such, saying stuff like that is hardly revolutionary.

Really?  Is that why the Catholic Church spends so much on educational instututions?  Even though our family is not religious we gave very serious consideration to sending our boys to a catholic school here in Vancouver because it is amongst the best in the Province.

[Sheilbh]

The clergy in general, and populist politicians are directly interested in the maintenance of poverty and illiteracy, because those are the source of their power. As such, saying stuff like that is hardly revolutionary.

I'm not claiming Francis is revolutionary. But the Catholic Church is the world's largest charitable educator, which is a perverse way to preserve illiteracy.

The Church's view is that you need to preach to the poor, help them physically and then try to change society:

Solidarity is a spontaneous reaction by those who recognize that the social function of property and the universal destination of goods are realities which come before private property. The private ownership of goods is justified by the need to protect and increase them, so that they can better serve the common good; for this reason, solidarity must be lived as the decision to restore to the poor what belongs to them. These convictions and habits of solidarity, when they are put into practice, open the way to other structural transformations and make them possible. Changing structures without generating new convictions and attitudes will only ensure that those same structures will become, sooner or later, corrupt, oppressive and ineffectual.

"Poor among the poor" probably only refers to personal property, not the Church as such, which is for the glory of God. Probably. Heck if I know. I've spent most of my life not believing in anything, and I am not going to start now.

Yeah. For all the 'feed the poor' stuff in the Bible there's an equal amount of descriptions of the Temple, which was not a poor building, or Mary Magdalene washing the feet of Christ in her most expensive perfume. An ornate church is open to rich and poor alike - and actually there are several in London that tramps sleep in through the day.

[Beenherebefore]

And this is why Libertarians should be hunted down and killed.

If one post by Tamas is your justification for going on a killing spree, I am not sure who should be hunted down.
While I don't "get" the whole libertarian movement per se, I see no reason its less valid than say social democracy. It's a political position, and not necessarily indicative of whether or not you are a decent person.

Yes, I have become more mellow.

[alfred russel]

Poverty will probably never be eliminated,

The Singularity will fix it.

I think we should start ignoring all long term problems because of the impending singularity.

[Beenherebefore]

Yeah. For all the 'feed the poor' stuff in the Bible there's an equal amount of descriptions of the Temple, which was not a poor building,

Today's building standards would classify it as such.

[crazy canuck]

And this is why Libertarians should be hunted down and killed.

If one post by Tamas is your justification for going on a killing spree, I am not sure who should be hunted down.

Meh, you havent been here for a while.  Tamas posts quite a lot.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. For all the 'feed the poor' stuff in the Bible there's an equal amount of descriptions of the Temple, which was not a poor building,

Today's building standards would classify it as such.

True enough. I don't understand why glass, steel and porphyry can't be a look

But I used to work next door to Save the Children who had a very swanky glass and steel office. I imagine that'd be a far higher cost for a charity than the old offices you happened to inherit. But the Church needs to impress God and other charities need to impress bankers with doubtful consciences.

[Beenherebefore]

Yeah. For all the 'feed the poor' stuff in the Bible there's an equal amount of descriptions of the Temple, which was not a poor building,

Today's building standards would classify it as such.

True enough. I don't understand why glass, steel and porphyry can't be a look

But I used to work next door to Save the Children who had a very swanky glass and steel office. I imagine that'd be a far higher cost for a charity than the old offices you happened to inherit. But the Church needs to impress God and other charities need to impress bankers with doubtful consciences.

I recently worked on a project about energy efficiency in churches. Needless to say, since most are old and inadequately maintained, the scores were poor, to say the least. And with that, a lot of the money the local church councils spend is on utilities. If you insulated churches properly, something which most of the time can't be done because of laws protecting old buildings, they'd surely have a good deal more to spend on helping the poor.

While I am all for protecting our common heritage, including church buildings, those that still are in use on a regular basis need to be suitably upgraded.