Asian educational achievement

[Admiral Yi]

The Korean government a year or two ago moved to crack down on the Korean version of jukus as kids were staying there late (post-midnight) and sleeping during school as a result.

Hakwon

The Korean government cracked down on hakwons every 4 years I was living there.

[Monoriu]

but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.

This is a myth.  I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam. 

[The Brain]

but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.

This is a myth.  I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.

Which dynasty was this?

[dps]

Funny.  We in HK marvel at western educational achievement.  It is quite obvious to us that western students are happy, confident, outgoing, and willing and able to think outside the box. 

Well, yeah, because we don't have an educational system that stresses rote learning and turns us into downbeaten, fatalistic drones, nor do employers here (in general) give a shit how you did in school.  OTOH, our educational system produces college graduates who can't figure your change when they have to settle for a job running a register at McDonalds.

I think the rote learning, faltalistic drones part is a side effect, not the goal of the East Asian education system.  The real goal of the system is selection of the best in a way that gives everybody a fair chance.  Even the sons and daughters of the poorest have a shot at joining the office worker class as long as they did well in the anonymous, centralised exams.  They may not have the connections, may not have the money for the extra-curriculars, but any kid can memorise stuff.  This is important for social cohesion.  You maybe poor, but as long as your kid can cram more facts into his head than some rich kid, he can be a doctor or a lawyer someday.  As long as he scored top grades, nobody will care about the fact that his parents are janitors. 

That's, uhm, really not anybody's goal in the West.

[garbon]

but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.

This is a myth.  I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam. 

I don't know that one example is a good refutation of a generalization.

[Monoriu]

but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.

This is a myth.  I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam. 

I don't know that one example is a good refutation of a generalization.

And I don't know if that generalisation has any basis 

[Ed Anger]

but in practice it was setup so that pretty much only people from wealthy families who could afford the extensive preperation could pass.

This is a myth.  I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam.

Which dynasty was this?

Duck

[Josquius]

This is a myth.  I know for certain that someone didn't go to any of these tutoring workshops, and he passed every exam. 

Pretty much only the wealthy families.
I'm sure in a thousand years of history there were a bunch of examples of poor kids making it.

That's, uhm, really not anybody's goal in the West.

*raises hand*

Its certainly the goal of a lot of working class people that their kids can climb like that.

[Eddie Teach]

There are a lot of people working in offices making $10/hour.

[Josquius]

There are a lot of people working in offices making $10/hour.

Yep.
What with the old story of the university lecturer quitting to become a plumber and all that.
People who work with their hands don't see that however. They just see office work as being instantly better and easier. Hell. Not even just the workers themselves but society as a whole in the UK even. Everything is setup so that university is the only way for anyone with even an ounce of brainpower and training to become an electrician is the failure's route.

[sbr]

I would shoot myself in the head rather than work in an office and sit at a desk all day every day.

[Monoriu]

Pretty much only the wealthy families.
I'm sure in a thousand years of history there were a bunch of examples of poor kids making it.

I agree that rich kids have big advantages, but tutorial lessons is probably not one of them. 

I've been to a whole bunch of schools, most of them with very working class backgrounds.  What strikes me most is that they have given up.  They don't believe that they have any chance to be the 2% who will make it.  Their English is particularly bad.  I have seen students who are taught individual words in like grade 9.  By grade 9, we wrote essays and completed one mock exam per week.  Those folks just go "hey we'll focus our energy on what we want to do, like drums."  It is the whole mindset of the schools, teachers, parents and students that is wrong.  If they go down, at least go down fighting to the last gasp.  At least try to learn passive voice, not practise African drums. 

[CountDeMoney]

There are a lot of people working in offices making $10/hour.

People who work with their hands don't see that however. They just see office work as being instantly better and easier.

I would say that too, if not for having worked in a warehouse for less money.  And after a certain age you appreciate certain things, like not having to take Motrin and use a heating pad every day after work.

[Josquius]

Pretty much only the wealthy families.
I'm sure in a thousand years of history there were a bunch of examples of poor kids making it.

I agree that rich kids have big advantages, but tutorial lessons is probably not one of them. 

I've been to a whole bunch of schools, most of them with very working class backgrounds.  What strikes me most is that they have given up.  They don't believe that they have any chance to be the 2% who will make it.  Their English is particularly bad.  I have seen students who are taught individual words in like grade 9.  By grade 9, we wrote essays and completed one mock exam per week.  Those folks just go "hey we'll focus our energy on what we want to do, like drums."  It is the whole mindset of the schools, teachers, parents and students that is wrong.  If they go down, at least go down fighting to the last gasp.  At least try to learn passive voice, not practise African drums. 

Wait...you're speaking about the modern day?
I'm speaking about the old confucian civil service system in imperial times, as shown in its truest form in Korea.

As to modern times...I agree that despair and not trying is a big deal with poor kids. At my school it was drilled into me that I actively had to give off the impression of not trying. Hiding academic books behind magazines and that sort of thing.
But trying to play the same game as those destined for the top is a bit of a mistake, they should instead concentrate on other routes to having a good life.

[garbon]

I would shoot myself in the head rather than work in an office and sit at a desk all day every day.

I would say you are doing it wrong if you were sit in an office all day every day.