Blame Ide for America's problems

[Neil]

I generally agree with Ide, except that the single-income is certainly not a prerequisite to the middle class anymore.

[Jacob]

Yeah Sheilbh, that and values (which often correlates with quality of life and lifestyle).

And yeah Neil, I think the single-income family is in the purview of the upper middle class (your doctors and successful lawyers) and people in danger of dropping out of the middle class altogether. It's been that way for a while too.

[Berkut]

My single income is certainly making me a bit anxious. I like the wife not working, but I am very concerned it means we are not saving nearly enough for retirement.

[The Brain]

The idea that median income makes a person middle class seems weird. That's not how the term is used for instance when talking about the emergence of a middle class in developing countries etc etc etc. My impression is that normally middle class involves being between the working class and the upper class.

[Ideologue]

The idea that median income makes a person middle class seems weird. That's not how the term is used for instance when talking about the emergence of a middle class in developing countries etc etc etc. My impression is that normally middle class involves being between the working class and the upper class.

Yep.  By grumbler's and Yi's original metric, Zimbabwe has a thriving middle class.

[Ideologue]

Yeah Sheilbh, that and values (which often correlates with quality of life and lifestyle).

And yeah Neil, I think the single-income family is in the purview of the upper middle class (your doctors and successful lawyers) and people in danger of dropping out of the middle class altogether. It's been that way for a while too.

I think this may be a concession to the state of things that I have to make.  The days of single income households are effectively over, for better or for (in fact) worse.

I'd very much like to see a return to it.  Unfortunately, our biology (?) is a real stumbling block.  No one wants to see women out of the workforce.  However, once they enter, they depress wages (which may be good but is probably bad); men can't leave because few women wish to be sole breadwinners, and given our programming (or their, if you insist), will resist the idea.  Since almost all men will still be under sexual pressure to get jobs, and most women will still want to work to have a measure of financial independence, the upshot is that single income middle class households are impossible due to wage stagnation in the lower orders; and only unreconstructed women who manage to marry into the upper orders will find themselves in single income households of any appreciable wealth.

I dunno, I don't wanna sound like a Drakken here.  I don't know if this is a purely biological issue--with regret, I suspect it is--or a social one that can be overcome.  A return to Rockwellian innocence is what I'm after.  Though of course there are manifold serious problems inherent in the concept, which I am not at this moment prepared to address.

[DGuller]

I'm done.

Your fans lament.

Ide, there's no way median salary is not in the middle class.  We're not the UK, where middle class is defined by occupation.  If you earn an income smack dab in the middle then by definition you're in the middle class.

So, if 99% of the people earn $0, and the other 1% earns $100,000,000, then everyone is at least a middle class, right?

[Admiral Yi]

Yep.  By grumbler's and Yi's original metric, Zimbabwe has a thriving middle class.

No, by my original metric Zimbabwe has a shit middle class.

[grumbler]

Being middle class involves certain prerequisites.  Outside of silly places like NYC or SF, one of those is home ownership, or at least ability to own a home.  Another is ability to support a spouse and children if need be.

I didn't know that Britain lacks a middle class (home ownership there is low).

As noted above, ability to own a modest home, ability to own two used cars, ability to support a normal nuclear family on one income (support defined as feed and clothe), ability to support a modest hobby, and an expectation that you will retain those abilities for the foreseeable future.

So, no middle class until the invention of the automobile? :hmmm:

Generally, middle class has been defined as the ability to buy all the necessities of life, and still have enough left over to purchase some luxuries.  That, I have certainly been able to do on a median income.  So can you.

defining middle class simply as what being able to afford what you want to have but cannot now afford, so you can define yourself as being working-class, is just circular reasoning.  What would you want with two cars, anyway?

[CountDeMoney]

Generally, middle class has been defined as the ability to buy all the necessities of life, and still have enough left over to purchase some luxuries.  That, I have certainly been able to do on a median income.  So can you.

That's how I always kind judged it.  Enough to pay the bills, sock some away, and afford a toy or two.

I don't think Ide's come to grips with the fact that getting a law degree didn't immediately place him in the landed gentry.  It's unfortunate.  It may just take a while, Ide.

defining middle class simply as what being able to afford what you want to have but cannot now afford, so you can define yourself as being working-class, is just circular reasoning.  What would you want with two cars, anyway?

I kinda liked having two cars;  used the work car to keep the mileage off the play car.

[Ed Anger]

I'm middle class. 

[CountDeMoney]

Yeah, in the middle of 1% and .1%.

Fascist fuckstick.

[Ed Anger]

Please. Online tests said I was a 2%er.

[CountDeMoney]

Do you check the box on your tax form for your declared income like Colbert does, the one marked "Let's just say we're comfortable"?

[Ed Anger]

I don't watch Colbert. He isn't funny.