WI Red Army competence in 1941?

[Queequeg]

But no purges?? I wouldnt even base a discussion on that. You would be better off with just saying Stalin was not in the picture and going from there.

This is pretty much exactly that.  Either Stalin is somehow restrained, or he's a completely different character.

[11B4V]

But no purges?? I wouldnt even base a discussion on that. You would be better off with just saying Stalin was not in the picture and going from there.

This is pretty much exactly that.  Either Stalin is somehow restrained, or he's a completely different character.

Ah

[Queequeg]

WI Hitler was rational/the Nazis didn't want to exterminate entire populations is a pretty common alternative history question, but the opposite-what if the USSR wasn't the horrifying monster it was in the Interwar period-seems at least as interesting to me.  However, I think for the purposes of this thread it makes sense to go in a middle-way between a rational USSR and the historical reality; if not for the Moscow-derived Social Fascist policy I think it's not entirely clear how the NSDAP takes power in Germany in the first place. 

[Kleves]

If there's no downside to your scenario then what's the interest? Especially if Germany attacks anyway. Germany loses a bit quicker than historically. Yay?

Seems like the kind of goofy scenario some die-hard Russian nationalist would come up so he could imagine a future where his country wasn't shit (not that Spellus had that intent).

[PDH]

This seems to be a Timmay "What if everything was good for the Soviets" type of scenario.  Given that Stalin was Stalin, I can't see such things happening.

[Queequeg]

This seems to be a Timmay "What if everything was good for the Soviets" type of scenario.  Given that Stalin was Stalin, I can't see such things happening.

Okay, then let's remove Stalin from the picture after the rise of the Nazis.  Assume a slightly more competent, less murderous leadership that is still anti-NEP and attempts the collectivization of agriculture and forced economic development of Siberia. 

Seems like the kind of goofy scenario some die-hard Russian nationalist would come up so he could imagine a future where his country wasn't shit (not that Spellus had that intent).

I think the USSR would have ended up with control over all of Central Europe.  I think that would have pretty dramatic consequences for the Cold War.

Also, all plausible scenarios where Russia isn't total shit today in my mind begin with the mass murder of the Bolsheviks in 1917. The implication of this is that the USSR gets to metastasize deeper in to Western Europe. 

[PDH]

So you are positing a "Stalin dies in 1935" scenario?  I think the chaos in the Soviet Union might be worse.  Stalin did force industrialization in the 30s as well as killing a lot of the people he believed were against him.  A divided and less industrial Soviet Union would be even worse off - Stalin at least had the cult of personality to rally the nation to him.

[Queequeg]

So you are positing a "Stalin dies in 1935" scenario?  I think the chaos in the Soviet Union might be worse.  Stalin did force industrialization in the 30s as well as killing a lot of the people he believed were against him.  A divided and less industrial Soviet Union would be even worse off - Stalin at least had the cult of personality to rally the nation to him.

Shitty leadership lead to loss of most of the European USSR and the loss of a lot of industrial centers.  On balance, a USSR capable of defending itself in 1941 with a slightly less developed pig iron industry seems a fair trade. 

[PDH]

Shitty leadership lead to loss of most of the European USSR and the loss of a lot of industrial centers.  On balance, a USSR capable of defending itself in 1941 with a slightly less developed pig iron industry seems a fair trade.

Not sure.  After the initial idiocy of late June and July, Stalin (aside from that little detail of Kiev) provided a backbone that allowed the Soviets to reform and reorganize.  Sure, he was often a hinderance...but something in the Soviet system needed a mean old grandfather like him to get things to work.

[CountDeMoney]

This seems to be a Timmay "What if everything was good for the Soviets" type of scenario.  Given that Stalin was Stalin, I can't see such things happening.

German combined arms doctrine, experience and air power still smokes the Red Army in 1941, regardless of who is in charge.

[jimmy olsen]

If there's no downside to your scenario then what's the interest? Especially if Germany attacks anyway. Germany loses a bit quicker than historically. Yay?

If the Soviets are doing ok, the US wouldn't extend Lend Lease to them. That would seriously put a cramp in the Soviet ability to launch counteroffensives.

[PDH]

If there's no downside to your scenario then what's the interest? Especially if Germany attacks anyway. Germany loses a bit quicker than historically. Yay?

If the Soviets are doing ok, the US wouldn't extend Lend Lease to them. That would seriously put a cramp in the Soviet ability to launch counteroffensives.

And this would end up with the US owning much of northern Mexico on your map?

[CountDeMoney]

And this would end up with the US owning much of northern Mexico on your map?

No Lend Lease to the Soviets --> Confederate States of America joins the Axis.

[PDH]

And this would end up with the US owning much of northern Mexico on your map?

No Lend Lease to the Soviets --> Confederate States of America joins the Axis.

Ok, that I see.

[Razgovory]

The problem in 1941 wasn't as much incompetence in the military, but the isolated position that Stalin put the Soviet Union in.   And his behavior wasn't irrational in this regard.  Britain and France didn't look like good allies with their tacit approval of Franco and the Czech thing.  He miscalculated Hitler's behavior (which everyone did), and he miscalculated how warfare would look in the 1940's.

To really prevent a disastrous 1941 he needs to either be eliminated at much earlier date (like 1918), or betray Hitler in 1940.