Women as Army Rangers and Navy Seals by 2016

[crazy canuck]

Nope.

Yep - go back and re-read the bit about how early minimum standard tests were based upon percentages of what the average male in that grouping could do.  That is exactly the kind of measure that has been rejected.  Minimum standards must be based on something more meaningful then average percentage scores.

You are speaking from ignorance. Not meant as an insult.

[Neil]

The issue that he's bringing up is that females are already held to a lower standard than males because the standards for women are lower than those for men, and that it would violate some kind of wacky rule to expect the women to perform to the male standard.

[crazy canuck]

The issue that he's bringing up is that females are already held to a lower standard than males because the standards for women are lower than those for men, and that it would violate some kind of wacky rule to expect the women to perform to the male standard.

His notion of the "male standard" is the problematic piece since it is based on some kind of 70% rule.

[11B4V]

11B4V or others that are knowledgeable, I'd appreciate some clarification on an impression I got as I don't really know.

A few years ago I decided to build an exercise routine around marine standards (on the basis that marines are in shape but aren't required to be super athletes). I surfed some military boards for fitness ideas and came up with the following impressions:
-The basic standards are really there to make sure people are taking reasonable care to stay in shape. That is why it doesn't matter that men and women have different standards: leadership wants the mechanics, nurses, and IT specialists of the military to be in shape, but they don't want to be chasing anyone off because they aren't track stars.
-The basic standards are not enough in armor and infantry. You won't be allowed to continue if you are barely skating by.
-The SF requirements are worthless. The point being I looked into the Navy Seals and Ranger minimum requirements, and I thought I could get there without too much trouble. I was doubting the media reports that the SF guys are supermen, but then I looked into what they are actually doing. From what I read, the chance of me actually getting through the training would be zero.

Well unless they have changed it, the Army PT test requires a min. of 60 pts in each event (3) for a pass for 180 pts total.

If you are if even a leg infantry unit and you are below 250 or so you'll get fucked with. The units I was in 270 min.

The DAT's, Cannon Cockers, Ditch Diggers, Rotor heads for example, are fat lazy POS. They are with the rest of the Army. A 190-200 is an achievement.  Fucking sods.


Now to your last line. I'll see if I can give you some insight and examples.

Take the min 49 Push-ups (PU), 6 chin-ups (CU) for the school PT test. The other events in the Ranger School test are a no-brainer so to speak. Take this from a former RI, if you go there thinking you only need to do minimum PU's and CU's and that's all you are training yourself to attain, you'll be doing the dufflebag drag.


The below should still be current. Instructions for the PU portion of the PT test.

"THE PUSH-UP EVENT MEASURES THE ENDURANCE OF THE CHEST, SHOULDER, AND TRICEPS MUSCLES. ON THE COMMAND, 'GET SET', ASSUME THE FRONT-LEANING REST POSITION BY PLACING YOUR HANDS WHERE THEY ARE COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). WHEN VIEWED FROM THE SIDE, YOUR BODY SHOULD FORM A GENERALLY STRAIGHT LINE FROM YOUR SHOULDERS TO YOUR ANKLES. ON THE COMMAND 'GO', BEGIN THE PUSH-UP BY BENDING YOUR ELBOWS AND LOWERING YOUR ENTIRE BODY AS A SINGLE UNIT UNTIL YOUR UPPER ARMS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE GROUND. THEN, RETURN TO THE STARTING POSITION BY RAISING YOUR ENTIRE BODY UNTIL YOUR ARMS ARE FULLY EXTENDED. YOUR BODY MUST REMAIN RIGID IN A GENERALLY STRAIGHT LINE AND MOVE AS A UNIT WHILE PERFORMING EACH REPETITION. AT THE END OF EACH REPETITION, THE SCORER WILL STATE THE NUMBER OF REPETITIONS YOU HAVE COMPLETED CORRECTLY. IF YOU FAIL TO KEEP YOUR BODY GENERALLY STRAIGHT, TO LOWER YOUR WHOLE BODY UNTIL YOUR UPPER ARMS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE GROUND, OR TO EXTEND YOUR ARMS COMPLETELY, THAT REPETITION WILL NOT COUNT, AND THE SCORER WILL REPEAT THE NUMBER OF THE LAST CORRECTLY PERFORMED REPETITION."


          "IF YOU FAIL TO PERFORM THE FIRST 10 PUSH-UPS CORRECTLY, THE SCORER WILL TELL YOU TO GO TO YOUR KNEES AND WILL EXPLAIN YOUR DEFICIENCIES. YOU WILL THEN BE SENT TO THE END OF THE LINE TO BE RETESTED. AFTER THE FIRST 10 PUSH-UPS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED AND COUNTED, NO RESTARTS ARE ALLOWED. THE TEST WILL CONTINUE, AND ANY INCORRECTLY PERFORMED PUSH-UPS WILL NOT BE COUNTED. AN ALTERED, FRONT-LEANING REST POSITION IS THE ONLY AUTHORIZED REST POSITION. THAT IS, YOU MAY SAG IN THE MIDDLE OR FLEX YOUR BACK. WHEN FLEXING YOUR BACK, YOU MAY BEND YOUR KNEES, BUT NOT TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING MOST OF YOUR BODY WEIGHT WITH YOUR LEGS. IF THIS OCCURS, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED. YOU MUST RETURN TO, AND PAUSE IN, THE CORRECT STARTING POSITION BEFORE CONTINUING. IF YOU REST ON THE GROUND OR RAISE EITHER HAND OR FOOT FROM THE GROUND, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED. YOU MAY REPOSITION YOUR HANDS AND/OR FEET DURING THE EVENT AS LONG AS THEY REMAIN IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND AT ALL TIMES. CORRECT PERFORMANCE IS IMPORTANT. YOU WILL HAVE TWO MINUTES IN WHICH TO DO AS MANY PUSH-UPS AS YOU CAN. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION."

Sounds pretty simple, huh? No so fast.

How we did it at Camp Rogers.

Do them to fast; I tell you to slow down and none will get counted until you slow down. That is only said once you get past the first ten (see above).

The speed they should be done at, is a cadence roughly when you say to yourself, "I go down and break the plane and i come up and lock my arms". Yes you will break the plane.

The infamous " one, two, three, four, five,...etc till ten (see above). Then it turns into eleven, eleven, eleven, twelve, twleve, thirteen, fourteen, fourteen...etc, till you reach muscle failure prior to 49 because your all fucked up anyway (a favorite technique this one is). Then it's to the back of the line.

and that is on day 1.

When I was at Camp Rogers as an RI, it was a 12 mile road march in 3 hours. A retestable event at that time to be sure. How did we retest...I'll tell ya.

On a 1/4 circular track. Talk about a mind fuck, eh. How many times was that?

I will tell y'all a story about the PL position I had day 8 in the mountain phase or the Santa Rosa fiasco in the Florida phase one of these days. When I went it was four phases at 76 days total length counting 0 week. I'm not sure what it is now, I know they took out the desert phase.

WELCOME TO "TEH SUCK" LADIES.

IT'S ONLY JUST BEGUN.





 

[11B4V]

Nope.

Yep - go back and re-read the bit about how early minimum standard tests were based upon percentages of what the average male in that grouping could do.  That is exactly the kind of measure that has been rejected.  Minimum standards must be based on something more meaningful then average percentage scores.

You are speaking from ignorance. Not meant as an insult.

I am talking how it is now and how it WILL change, because it cant be percentage based and be fair. Go fuck yourself, ass. Learn to comprehend.

[Siege]

Combat effectiveness and national security take a back seat to things like people's self-esteem.

So true but eventually the hysterical homophobes will fade away and we won't have to lose valuable gay servicemen.

Oh wait, were you talking about something else?

"Valuable gay servicemen"?   

[Siege]

Not sure why that assumption would be made.

Because there's precedent.  US Army Airborne School used to be very tough, but now it's a joke.

The same for air assault.

[11B4V]

The issue that he's bringing up is that females are already held to a lower standard than males because the standards for women are lower than those for men, and that it would violate some kind of wacky rule to expect the women to perform to the male standard.

His notion of the "male standard" is the problematic piece since it is based on some kind of 70% rule.

You currently have male and female PT standards in the Army. This is further broke down into an age groups for each. The (some kind  ) of 70% rule is the current Ranger School PT test only applied to males and only using the 17-21 age bracket regardless of the age of the student at the time of the test. Right, wrong, or indifferent that standard will change.

Again read what has been posted.

[Siege]

You are making exactly the same mistake referred to in my earlier posts.

Nope. You are asking a male to attain 49 push-ups which is 70%, and if he doesnt make it he's bounced from the course.

You're asking a female to attain above 100% and if she doesnt make it, she's bounced.

The females must pass at a higher standard than the males, if they keep the standards the same, that is.

Again, it wont fly.

EO

I think you are wrong in this.
Ranger school is already discriminating on age, making older people run as fast as a 18 yo.
I can easily see females forced to perform to the male 18 standard.
After all, is a volunteer school.

By the way, there is not 2 mile run in Ranger school anymore, just the 5 miles after push ups and sit ups, with the 6 perfect pull ups after the run.

Oh, and the pull ups are actually chin-ups, with palms facing you.

[11B4V]

Not sure why that assumption would be made.

Because there's precedent.  US Army Airborne School used to be very tough, but now it's a joke.

The same for air assault.

They were still teaching the CH-47 rope ladder when I went in '85.

How has it changed?

[11B4V]

You are making exactly the same mistake referred to in my earlier posts.

Nope. You are asking a male to attain 49 push-ups which is 70%, and if he doesnt make it he's bounced from the course.

You're asking a female to attain above 100% and if she doesnt make it, she's bounced.

The females must pass at a higher standard than the males, if they keep the standards the same, that is.

Again, it wont fly.

EO

By the way, there is not 2 mile run in Ranger school anymore, just the 5 miles after push ups and sit ups, with the 6 perfect pull ups after the run.

Oh, and the pull ups are actually chin-ups, with palms facing you.

They took the 2 miler out, eh. 

I think you are wrong in this.
Ranger school is already discriminating on age, making older people run as fast as a 18 yo.

Nope, check the standards. 17-21 age bracket regardless. I posted the PU chart on page 4. 49 push-ups is 70% in the 17-21 bracket. Same for the sit-ups 70% in the 17-21 age bracket. Age dont have shit to do with it.

Besides it was a males only club since it's inception. Guess what? Here come "Teh Girls". They will change the standards and if they dont do it to begin with, they'll do it after the first EO complaint.

[Siege]

11B4V or others that are knowledgeable, I'd appreciate some clarification on an impression I got as I don't really know.

A few years ago I decided to build an exercise routine around marine standards (on the basis that marines are in shape but aren't required to be super athletes). I surfed some military boards for fitness ideas and came up with the following impressions:
-The basic standards are really there to make sure people are taking reasonable care to stay in shape. That is why it doesn't matter that men and women have different standards: leadership wants the mechanics, nurses, and IT specialists of the military to be in shape, but they don't want to be chasing anyone off because they aren't track stars.
-The basic standards are not enough in armor and infantry. You won't be allowed to continue if you are barely skating by.
-The SF requirements are worthless. The point being I looked into the Navy Seals and Ranger minimum requirements, and I thought I could get there without too much trouble. I was doubting the media reports that the SF guys are supermen, but then I looked into what they are actually doing. From what I read, the chance of me actually getting through the training would be zero.

Infantry units require a minimun of 270 score in your APFT.
That means you need 90% in each event, push-ups, sit-ups and 2mile run, or you can max out 2 events and get 70% in the one you suck at.

In my last APFT I scored 282 with 71 push-ups, 76 sit-ups, and 16:10 on the 2mile run.

For the 42-46 yo group:
Push-ups 66 = 100%
Sit-ups    72 = 100%
2mileR 14:06 = 100%, therefore my 16:10 was only 82%

[Neil]

Old guy is slow.

[11B4V]

Infantry units require a minimun of 270 score in your APFT.
That means you need 90% in each event, push-ups, sit-ups and 2mile run, or you can max out 2 events and get 70% in the one you suck at.

In my last APFT I scored 282 with 71 push-ups, 76 sit-ups, and 16:10 on the 2mile run.

For the 42-46 yo group:
Push-ups 66 = 100%
Sit-ups    72 = 100%
2mileR 14:06 = 100%, therefore my 16:10 was only 82%

I always hated the 2 miler. I liked distance and trail running much more.

[11B4V]

Combat effectiveness and national security take a back seat to things like people's self-esteem.

So true but eventually the hysterical homophobes will fade away and we won't have to lose valuable gay servicemen.

Oh wait, were you talking about something else?

Eh, close enough.