Poll
Question:
How do you feel about the US's social and political situation?
Option 1: Downward slide: rent-seekers, hyper partisanship, and misinformation everywhere. The rot has set in and the decline of the American Empire is well underway.
votes: 19
Option 2: Yeah, there's a bunch of stupid shit going on but it will get turned around eventually. I hope.
votes: 9
Option 3: Yes all the bad things in options 1 and 2 are true, but that's how it always is. Business as usual.
votes: 14
Option 4: Beyond too many storms in too many teacups, things are going great. Sure, there's lots of whining, but things are great. Business as usual.
votes: 1
Option 5: Things are better than ever! Compared to the past, this is probably the best it's ever been and that's great! Let's hope the upwards trajectory continues!
votes: 0
Option 6: Uhm... I dunno?
votes: 3
What do you think? How are things in the US and how's the future looking?
#4, but swap out great for reasonably well.
#1
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2013, 02:44:17 PM
#4, but swap out great for reasonably well.
That's weird I thought you agreed with me on the debt thing. I mean you said you agreed with me. What changed?
Anyway there will be no collapse, the country is too large and too strong. Ultimate alot of shit is going to go down but in the end we will be fine, change though is coming. What exactly it looks like will be interesting to say the least.
As for 'decline of the American Empire' well it was not sustainable in the first place and only existed as a result of particular circumstances. I guess I will go ahead and vote #1 though I am not really happy with the wording of any of the choices.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2013, 02:44:17 PM
#4, but swap out great for reasonably well.
Yet there is 0 votes for #4 right now...
Quote from: Jacob on May 15, 2013, 03:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2013, 02:44:17 PM
#4, but swap out great for reasonably well.
Yet there is 0 votes for #4 right now...
As should be expected with the current wording.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 15, 2013, 03:11:45 PM
As should be expected with the current wording.
Ah. Gotcha.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 02:51:56 PM
That's weird I thought you agreed with me on the debt thing. I mean you said you agreed with me. What changed?
Deficits keep shrinking?
The key personal goal is to perform and live well regardless of the state of the country. Then, gradually improve people and areas around you until you make the world a better place.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2013, 03:15:52 PM
Deficits keep shrinking?
Slightly but the problem is a long term one and dates back 30 years if not more.
Social situation is fine. That stuff is like the ocean. It sloshes around and has currents and everything but in the end it's still the ocean.
Politically, we're pretty hopeless. But it doesn't bother me. These things come in cycles. Maybe we'll reach the good part of the cycle in my lifetime. Entropy weathers all structures and then they reform again. Actually, I'm pretty pessimistic about the political future of humanity as a whole. Our future looks a lot more like Star Wars than Star Trek.
Does that mean the USA will die? No way. It'll be different. The same way it's different today from the way it was in the 50s or 1900. In the 1850s, Virginia City was the biggest city in Nevada by far. Now, it's got about 800 people and tourists visit it as a relic of the past. In the 1950s, Detroit was a boomtown. But those places have been replaced by new booms. No sense getting upset because the Comstock closed. There will be other opportunities. Maybe somebody will find more silver on another hillside, or maybe we'll decide to build some casinos or something.
Asians have overtaken Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants. They are usually wealthier, more educated, and outperform whites. Asians will rebuild America and lead it into the 22nd century.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 15, 2013, 03:27:11 PM
Asians have overtaken Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants. They are usually wealthier, more educated, and outperform whites. Asians will rebuild America and lead it into the 22nd century.
The reason immigration is viewed so differently between Canada and the US is your immigrants are largely hispanic, while ours are asian.
OMG Firefly was right!
Doom.
Situation now will pale in comparison when the Zombie Apocalypse hits. BTW, the poll needs a Jaron option.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 15, 2013, 03:27:11 PM
Asians have overtaken Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants. They are usually wealthier, more educated, and outperform whites. Asians will rebuild America and lead it into the 22nd century.
Well I did not think any of our problems was connected to the race of our immigrants...but hey if they do great for them.
When you strip away all the noise and fury, the political system works pretty well.
We got ourselves into an all-advised war, but eventually figured out how to muddle through it and get out without a complete disaster.
We over-reacted in a crack down on terrorism but the Supreme Court and the press both stepped in different ways to counteract the most serious abuses.
Of all the OECD countries, our policy response to the financial crisis and recession was probably the most rational.
The game of chicken on the debt limit is the one thing that gives me pause. But it seems like the lesson has sunk in that it can't ever be allowed to go that far again. Cross fingers.
The other concern is the failure to come up with a serious policy response to global warming but the US is far from unique in that regard.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 03:39:48 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 15, 2013, 03:27:11 PM
Asians have overtaken Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants. They are usually wealthier, more educated, and outperform whites. Asians will rebuild America and lead it into the 22nd century.
Well I did not think any of our problems was connected to the race of our immigrants...but hey if they do great for them.
Agree. Race has not caused any problems in American history.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 15, 2013, 03:46:44 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 03:39:48 PM
Quote from: Phillip V on May 15, 2013, 03:27:11 PM
Asians have overtaken Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants. They are usually wealthier, more educated, and outperform whites. Asians will rebuild America and lead it into the 22nd century.
Well I did not think any of our problems was connected to the race of our immigrants...but hey if they do great for them.
Agree. Race has not caused any problems in American history.
I think our problems are over-stretch, dealing with the problems of changes in the 21st century, and our current political quagmire. I do not think the immigrants have much to do with that at all. And no race has not been the problem, racism has :contract:
But if you are right, hey great.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
When you strip away all the noise and fury, the political system works pretty well.
I guess I feel precisely the opposite. The noise and fury are just things to distract us from the problems in the political system. But ultimately the sound and fury mean nothing.
Quote from: Valmy on May 15, 2013, 03:53:32 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
When you strip away all the noise and fury, the political system works pretty well.
I guess I feel precisely the opposite. The noise and fury are just things to distract us from the problems in the political system. But ultimately the sound and fury mean nothing.
Yea pretty much
#2 but replace "will" with "can". It's not assured-- one of our biggest threats is complacency-- but many systems are still fully operational and there is hope that what is broken can be fixed..
It's all bullshit.
A profound malaise has gripped America since at least the Bonus Army debacle.
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
A profound malaise has gripped America since at least the Bonus Army debacle.
QuoteAt 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered[citation needed] the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
I hope we take everybody down with us.
The US political system is designed to work.
It is not designed to look pretty in the process.
I vote 3 but would remove the last sentence of option 1. We haven't really had imperial-like holdings in quite sometime (thinking Philippines and Cuba) nor do I think we're rotting.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
A profound malaise has gripped America since at least the Bonus Army debacle.
QuoteAt 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered[citation needed] the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
Good point; the decline in the US began when people started quoting those shitty Wikipedia articles on the internet like they were credible. :thumbsup:
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2013, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
A profound malaise has gripped America since at least the Bonus Army debacle.
QuoteAt 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered[citation needed] the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
Good point; the decline in the US began when people started quoting those shitty Wikipedia articles on the internet like they were credible. :thumbsup:
He did keep the citation needed. :)
Quote from: grumbler on May 15, 2013, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 04:38:48 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 15, 2013, 04:35:35 PM
A profound malaise has gripped America since at least the Bonus Army debacle.
QuoteAt 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of civil service employees left work to line the street and watch. The Bonus Marchers, believing the troops were marching in their honor, cheered the troops until Patton ordered[citation needed] the cavalry to charge them—an action which prompted the spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"
Good point; the decline in the US began when people started quoting those shitty Wikipedia articles on the internet like they were credible. :thumbsup:
Then my chioce of #1 was correct. ;)
I think things are broadly fine. They could be better and there's still big problems.
Europe, on the other hand, is fucked.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 15, 2013, 05:32:40 PM
The US political system is designed to work.
It is not designed to look pretty in the process.
Well I look forward to it starting to work again sometime soon then.
I am not sure how it is supposed to work when they can keep most everything secret and we just have to hope for somebody to mess up or leak something to trigger a political scandal though. I mean doesn't it working sort of depend on the people being informed? Doesn't it working sort of depend on the Bill of Rights not being tossed aside by things like the Patriot Act on what looks to be a permanent basis? If the things that make it work, and that it depends on, are not functioning how exactly is it's design intact so it can work? Now these things may trigger a reaction that get it back to its normal ugly looking place but surely that is not inevitable no?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 17, 2013, 08:15:50 AM
I think things are broadly fine. They could be better and there's still big problems.
THere are big problems but we will survive them. We are just too big and strong and have a strong basic ideology. 'Fine' is a bit of a strong statement though.
QuoteEurope, on the other hand, is fucked.
Confederations rarely work, particularly as they get bigger. This is just another example of that.
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2013, 09:17:45 AM'Fine' is a bit of a strong statement though.
I don't think so. You're out of or winding down two long wars. The US economy has done better, after the crisis, than any other part of the developed world. For all of the hyperventilating about deficits and debt, your debt's about 71% and now projected to reach 76% in 2018 - that's hardly a crisis.
All of that and some relatively significant domestic reforms despite a poisonous political atmosphere.
There are worries, no doubt, but I think you'll be okay. If you compare the US with some Platonic form of how your government should work, or rose-tinted nostalgia of how it once did, then you'll come up short. If you compare it with, say, other OECD nations it doesn't look that bad.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 17, 2013, 09:28:40 AM
There are worries, no doubt, but I think you'll be okay. If you compare the US with some Platonic form of how your government should work, or rose-tinted nostalgia of how it once did, then you'll come up short. If you compare it with, say, other OECD nations it doesn't look that bad.
Believe me I have thought about that. That maybe this is just the way of the future and I should not put too much stock in all these things that seem so counter to the basics our government is supposed to be based on. I fully admit I am not brilliant enough that I might not be dead wrong.
With our system, if we are going to compare ourselves to other countries have tried to emulate it, it is sort of a miracle we have managed to stop the office of the President from becoming a quasi-dictator as it is. Instead we seem to be reaching a point where the Executive Branch itself is so big and unchecked and sort of has a mind of its own, it really runs the country in alot of ways.
But, on the other hand, with so many things modern governments have to do and the tools they have at their disposal perhaps this is a natural evolution and our political ideology and traditions at least keep it from being less so than other places. But if we just throw up our hands and say 'well everything I was taught to believe in and value in our way of government is not real and it is just rose tinted and platonic' then we lose that basic strength that holds it together.
And our economy is always going to be strong, it is hard to sit on this much land, recources, and population and not be strong.
I have no doubt that ultimately we will be ok but I think we are entering a difficult period. For some reason people seem to think it can only either be perfectly fine or DOOOOMED, I do not think it is either of those things.
QuoteYou're out of or winding down two long wars
Heh well we are always at war somewhere.
The Health Toll of Immigration
'A growing body of mortality research on immigrants has shown that the longer they live in this country, the worse their rates of heart disease, high blood pressure and diabetes. And while their American-born children may have more money, they tend to live shorter lives than the parents.
...
Why does life in the United States — despite its sophisticated health care system and high per capita wages — lead to worse health? New research is showing that the immigrant advantage wears off with the adoption of American behaviors — smoking, drinking, high-calorie diets and sedentary lifestyles.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/health/the-health-toll-of-immigration.html
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchismetime.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F12%2Ffat_babythumbnail.jpg&hash=f94295d0ef1112594621ac59e58769816c64cddc)
Why would you put a fat kid in a singlet?
Quote from: Phillip V on May 18, 2013, 11:30:14 PM
The Health Toll of Immigration...
Some years back a Bosnian colleague and I bonded over how we immediately could tell girls who grew up back in the old country from those born in Canada, even though they were ethnically the same. We too concluded that diet was the cause.
We're lazy, fat, and stupid. So, you know, SNAFU.
I'm not fat.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 17, 2013, 08:15:50 AM
I think things are broadly fine. They could be better and there's still big problems.
Europe, on the other hand, is fucked.
You know, I was telling you guys this wouldn't work out way back in 2003. :contract:
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 02:47:10 PM
#1
the negroes are uppity and the gay are rampaging through the streets, ha?
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2013, 02:40:19 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 02:47:10 PM
#1
the gay are rampaging through the streets, ha?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbackupot.andrewlew.is%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fshakehead.gif&hash=3ee3ada5b3312fe97b27346a149085f400fbaf18)
'A young man screamed antigay slurs at another man before killing him on Friday night in New York City.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/nyregion/killing-in-greenwich-village-looks-like-hate-crime-police-say.html
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2013, 02:40:19 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 02:47:10 PM
#1
the negroes are uppity and the gay are rampaging through the streets, ha?
Damn parades. :mad:
Quote from: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 02:42:03 AM
'A young man screamed antigay slurs at another man
The N-word? They are fairly anti-gay.
[quote author=Phillip V link=topic=9838.msg584058#msg584058 New research is showing that the immigrant advantage wears off with the adoption of American behaviors — smoking, drinking, high-calorie diets and sedentary lifestyles.'
[/quote]
:hmm: Didn't read the article, but feel pretty sure smoking is likely to be more common in the home country of most immigrants, at least for men. But the Times has got to throw in smoking demonization for good measure...
Quote from: Valmy on May 17, 2013, 09:04:23 AM
Well I look forward to it starting to work again sometime soon then.
I am not sure how it is supposed to work when they can keep most everything secret and we just have to hope for somebody to mess up or leak something to trigger a political scandal though. I mean doesn't it working sort of depend on the people being informed? Doesn't it working sort of depend on the Bill of Rights not being tossed aside by things like the Patriot Act on what looks to be a permanent basis? If the things that make it work, and that it depends on, are not functioning how exactly is it's design intact so it can work? Now these things may trigger a reaction that get it back to its normal ugly looking place but surely that is not inevitable no?
Is the Patriot Act especially unjust, historially speaking?
They read Valmy's library check out list. It was like the night of broken glass.
Patriot Act had a lot of silly stuff in it but also some valuable items that long needed to be addressed, like modernizing wire tap laws to new technology.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 02:42:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2013, 02:40:19 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 02:47:10 PM
#1
the gay are rampaging through the streets, ha?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbackupot.andrewlew.is%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fshakehead.gif&hash=3ee3ada5b3312fe97b27346a149085f400fbaf18)
'A young man screamed antigay slurs at another man before killing him on Friday night in New York City.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/nyregion/killing-in-greenwich-village-looks-like-hate-crime-police-say.html
Damn liberal media! He was just trying to convey the conservative viewpoint.
Quote from: Neil on May 19, 2013, 05:34:41 PM
Is the Patriot Act especially unjust, historially speaking?
Where did I say anything about justice? I was talking about the things that traditionally have made our system work.
Quote from: Valmy on May 20, 2013, 12:30:21 PM
I was talking about the things that traditionally have made our system work.
Cronyism and big money.
Quote from: PDH on May 20, 2013, 12:38:30 PM
Cronyism and big money.
Well...I guess that makes every system work :P
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on May 19, 2013, 10:31:31 AM
Didn't read the article, but feel pretty sure smoking is likely to be more common in the home country of most immigrants, at least for men. But the Times has got to throw in smoking demonization for good measure...
Yeah, I was going WTF on that. US has been doing much better on cutting down on smoking than most other countries, and definitely better than countries supplying us immigrants.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 19, 2013, 02:42:03 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 19, 2013, 02:40:19 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 15, 2013, 02:47:10 PM
#1
the gay are rampaging through the streets, ha?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbackupot.andrewlew.is%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fshakehead.gif&hash=3ee3ada5b3312fe97b27346a149085f400fbaf18)
'A young man screamed antigay slurs at another man before killing him on Friday night in New York City.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/nyregion/killing-in-greenwich-village-looks-like-hate-crime-police-say.html
Eek, that's pretty close to me though I didn't go out Friday.