http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/man-shark-wrestle-video-fired-155745529.html
QuoteA 62-year-old man who bravely dragged a shark away from children at an Australian beach has been fired from his job at a British charity because he had claimed to be on sick leave.
Paul Marshallsea and his 56-year-old wife, Wendy, were on leave from the Pant & Dowlais Boys & Girls Club in Wales for "work-related stress" in January, when he was spotted on a video grabbing the shark in shallow water as it approached the children and pulling it in the other direction. The footage, captured by a local television crew, went viral, with Marshallsea "hailed a hero," as London's Telegraph newspaper put it.
"We don't recommend manhandling sharks, but this gentleman did a great job," a spokesman for the Australian coast guard said at the time.
But Marshallsea and his wife returned from Australia to find a letter from the charity's board of trustees informing the pair they had been fired.
"Whilst unfit to work you were well enough to travel to Australia," the letter read in part. "And, according to recent news footage of yourself in Queensland, you allegedly grabbed a shark by the tail and narrowly missed being bitten by quickly jumping out of the way."
The husband and wife had worked there for 10 years.
"You think being in charge and running a children's charity, they would have patted me on the back and congratulated me," Marshallsea told the paper. "But to sack us both without any sort of discussion first is just disgusting."
They should have congratulated me on lying and skipping work!
Why did they take sick leave? Couldn't they just have taken vacation honestly and sidestepped the whole stupid thing?
He's a little too indignant, which suggests that he knows he was guilty of lying about the sick leave.
So he was on vacation while claiming to be sick?
:lol:
Sucks to get caught.
Yeah, he did a good thing, but he also did a bad thing. Stannis would have made him a knight and cut off some of his fingers.
Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 01:00:43 PMThey should have congratulated me on lying and skipping work!
He was on stress leave.
You're familiar with that sort of thing - isn't going to relax at a beach the kind of thing you're supposed to do on stress leave?
It's perfectly reasonable to go relax on a beach in Australia to relieve stress, but it appears he was granted the leave because he claimed to be incapacitated and unable to perform his job.
Is his job wrestling sharks?
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 01:00:43 PMThey should have congratulated me on lying and skipping work!
He was on stress leave.
You're familiar with that sort of thing - isn't going to relax at a beach the kind of thing you're supposed to do on stress leave?
Actually my work had me down for unspecified medical leave. ;) (Also I did run into one of our director's while taking a plane flight.)
But yeah what Yi said.
"Work-related stress" is destroying Great Britain.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 01:31:02 PM
It's perfectly reasonable to go relax on a beach in Australia to relieve stress, but it appears he was granted the leave because he claimed to be incapacitated and unable to perform his job.
Unless his job was to lay on a beach in Australia and/or wrestling sharks, I don't see how either of those activities contradict his claim.
Beating up a lawyer on the beach doesn't count as sick leave.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:03:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 01:31:02 PM
It's perfectly reasonable to go relax on a beach in Australia to relieve stress, but it appears he was granted the leave because he claimed to be incapacitated and unable to perform his job.
Unless his job was to lay on a beach in Australia and/or wrestling sharks, I don't see how either of those activities contradict his claim.
Unless his job was harder than wresting sharks, I don't see how he can justify wrestling sharks and being unable to do his (their) job.
Seems a pretty clear scam to me. Vacations should be taken using vacation leave, not disability leave.
Quote from: grumbler on March 13, 2013, 03:11:48 PM
Unless his job was harder than wresting sharks, I don't see how he can justify wrestling sharks and being unable to do his (their) job.
He wasn't there to wrestle sharks. It just happened.
I'd imagine his job was more stressful than lying on a beach.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 13, 2013, 03:18:20 PM
I'd imagine his job was more stressful than lying on a beach.
That's not a very helpful criteria for deciding if someone deserves disability leave.
Quote from: grumbler on March 13, 2013, 03:11:48 PMUnless his job was harder than wresting sharks, I don't see how he can justify wrestling sharks and being unable to do his (their) job.
Well, I think the shark thing was pretty improvised.
QuoteSeems a pretty clear scam to me. Vacations should be taken using vacation leave, not disability leave.
Maybe I'm unclear on the concept of disability leave, but if the disability is stress related then taking a relaxing vacation (impromptu shark wrestling notwithstanding) seems entirely appropriate.
What are you supposed to do on stress leave?
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
What are you supposed to do on stress leave?
Worry about getting your stress level down ? :unsure:
There is also the interesting coincidence of his wife just happening to be on stress leave at exactly the same time, making an Australian vacation together possible. :hmm:
I suppose it could happen that way.
I think the operative question is whether "stress," by itself is enough to justify disability leave, or whether the stress must be so severe that the employee is unable to perform his job.
I imagine it's a question of British labor law, and my money is on the second.
Else why would anyone ever show up for work?
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
What are you supposed to do on stress leave?
Lay in bed, eat rocky road and watch trashy films. :(
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 04:07:40 PM
I think the operative question is whether "stress," by itself is enough to justify disability leave, or whether the stress must be so severe that the employee is unable to perform his job.
I imagine it's a question of British labor law, and my money is on the second.
Else why would anyone ever show up for work?
The counter-argument would be thus:
(1) Employee gets diagnosed with stress-related problems so severe he can't work
(2) Gets stress leave to recover
(3) Goes to Australian Beach to relieve stress
(4) Treatment works - employee is now better functioning
(5) New, improved, de-stressed employee performs shark-related feats
Could happen this way ... but again, problem I have with this story is that both man & wife just happen to be "disabled by stress" at the very same time, which I think an employee might find a tad suspicious. It isn't too much to believe that their "stress leave" was just a ploy to take an Australian vacation together.
The other problem with the Australian beach stress therapy narrative is: how did Captain Scammy know how long the stress was going to last when he bought his tickets?
Quote from: Malthus on March 13, 2013, 04:13:57 PM
The counter-argument would be thus:
(1) Employee gets diagnosed with stress-related problems so severe he can't work
(2) Gets stress leave to recover
(3) Goes to Australian Beach to relieve stress
(4) Treatment works - employee is now better functioning
(5) New, improved, de-stressed employee performs shark-related feats
Could happen this way ... but again, problem I have with this story is that both man & wife just happen to be "disabled by stress" at the very same time, which I think an employee might find a tad suspicious. It isn't too much to believe that their "stress leave" was just a ploy to take an Australian vacation together.
(1)-(5) sounds reasonable to me. Though you're right about thing thing about the wife's coinciding stress leave (was she on stress leave as opposed to having taken vacation or not being employed?) does sound a bit odd.
Quote from: Malthus on March 13, 2013, 04:13:57 PM
(5) New, improved, de-stressed employee performs shark-related feats
:lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 04:18:02 PM
The other problem with the Australian beach stress therapy narrative is: how did Captain Scammy know how long the stress was going to last when he bought his tickets?
He could have bought a ticket with an open ended return. Or he could've been given stress leave for a specific period of time.
You're right, though, these details - like the wife's status and the duration of his leave - do make a difference. How many of them do we actually have?
He wouldn't have to be in Australia the entire duration of his disability leave would he?
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 04:39:33 PM
(1)-(5) sounds reasonable to me. Though you're right about thing thing about the wife's coinciding stress leave (was she on stress leave as opposed to having taken vacation or not being employed?) does sound a bit odd.
According to what little is in the article, both were on stress leave from the same employer and both got fired when they came back.
Well, now they don't have to worry about stress from work anymore. Problem solved.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
What are you supposed to do on stress leave?
I'm sure the instructions were very specifically outlined in their medical evaluations.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stressed-you-bet-i-was-shark-wrestler-paul-marshallsea-hailed-as-a-hero-is-sacked-because-he-was-on-sick-leave-8531441.html
He's claiming that his GP told him to. Charity is lawyered up and saying nothing.
Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 05:29:42 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stressed-you-bet-i-was-shark-wrestler-paul-marshallsea-hailed-as-a-hero-is-sacked-because-he-was-on-sick-leave-8531441.html
He's claiming that his GP told him to. Charity is lawyered up and saying nothing.
Yeah, that was the first article I read on the subject.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 05:20:16 PM
Well, now they don't have to worry about stress from work anymore. Problem solved.
:lol:
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
Maybe I'm unclear on the concept of disability leave, but if the disability is stress related then taking a relaxing vacation (impromptu shark wrestling notwithstanding) seems entirely appropriate.
What are you supposed to do on stress leave?
Stress leave is a kind of short hand for a person having some kind of mental illnes - usually of a short intense duration - that makes it impossible for them to report to work. Normally people on stress leave are undergoing some form a therapy to help them return to work.
You are using stress leave as a kind of short hand for "I need a vacation".
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 13, 2013, 05:57:06 PM
Stress leave is a kind of short hand for a person having some kind of mental illnes - usually of a short intense duration - that makes it impossible for them to report to work. Normally people on stress leave are undergoing some form a therapy to help them return to work.
You are using stress leave as a kind of short hand for "I need a vacation".
Well, the shark wrestling guy claims that his doctor told him to go on vacation, so - if he is to be believed - the therapy and the vacation are one and the same thing.
Now, like I said, I don't really know what the UK parameters for stress leave and appropriate therapy are, but it's pretty clear that the languish consensus concurs with the guy's former employer that beach vacations are inappropriate.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 04:41:39 PM
He could have bought a ticket with an open ended return.
Doesnt explain how his doctor would have been able to asses he was ready to return...
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 13, 2013, 05:57:06 PM
Stress leave is a kind of short hand for a person having some kind of mental illnes - usually of a short intense duration - that makes it impossible for them to report to work. Normally people on stress leave are undergoing some form a therapy to help them return to work.
You are using stress leave as a kind of short hand for "I need a vacation".
Well, the shark wrestling guy claims that his doctor told him to go on vacation, so - if he is to be believed - the therapy and the vacation are one and the same thing.
Now, like I said, I don't really know what the UK parameters for stress leave and appropriate therapy are, but it's pretty clear that the languish consensus concurs with the guy's former employer that beach vacations are inappropriate.
If that is true, then that is one doctor I would enjoy having under cross examination.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
Now, like I said, I don't really know what the UK parameters for stress leave and appropriate therapy are, but it's pretty clear that the languish consensus concurs with the guy's former employer that beach vacations are inappropriate.
For the Americans, there's no such thing as "stress leave". You're expected to work until you die. Anything less is considered a cop-out, and if you mention something like "stress", you're probably a black person.
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 13, 2013, 06:07:00 PMIf that is true, then that is one doctor I would enjoy having under cross examination.
Heh :lol:
Did you see the Prenda Law thread, by the way?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
Now, like I said, I don't really know what the UK parameters for stress leave and appropriate therapy are, but it's pretty clear that the languish consensus concurs with the guy's former employer that beach vacations are inappropriate.
For the Americans, there's no such thing as "stress leave". You're expected to work until you die. Anything less is considered a cop-out, and if you mention something like "stress", you're probably a black person.
<_<
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
I think they look upon employees disdain and contempt.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 10:11:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
I think they look upon employees disdain and contempt.
Let's not do down the Pant & Dowlais Boys & Girls Club.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
Oh it is true - just that I did secretly go out on that and I am black.
Then I'm sure they didn't look upon you with disdain or contempt at all.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
In Korea they assume that all employers are suffering from crippling levels of work related stress, all the way from the newest intern up to the CEO, but they believe that's just part of life.
Quote from: Sheilbh on March 13, 2013, 10:20:59 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 13, 2013, 10:11:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
I think they look upon employees disdain and contempt.
Let's not do down the Pant & Dowlais Boys & Girls Club.
You lost me.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 01:00:43 PMThey should have congratulated me on lying and skipping work!
He was on stress leave.
You're familiar with that sort of thing - isn't going to relax at a beach the kind of thing you're supposed to do on stress leave?
I wouldn't exactly call wrestling sharks "relaxing". :rolleyes:
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
What are you supposed to do on stress leave?
Is this a trick question?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 04:18:02 PM
The other problem with the Australian beach stress therapy narrative is: how did Captain Scammy know how long the stress was going to last when he bought his tickets?
This is actually the part that is not controversial - if it works as it does in Poland, if you get a medical leave, the doctor ordains you X number of days for your leave. If, at the end of the period, you still feel bad, you can go to the doctor to have it extended, but the duration of the leave is not shortened because "you felt better already".
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 06:12:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
Now, like I said, I don't really know what the UK parameters for stress leave and appropriate therapy are, but it's pretty clear that the languish consensus concurs with the guy's former employer that beach vacations are inappropriate.
For the Americans, there's no such thing as "stress leave". You're expected to work until you die. Anything less is considered a cop-out, and if you mention something like "stress", you're probably a black person.
Well, same is true for Poles. I mean just look at the Polish Pope vs. the German Pope.
Stress-related leaves happen in Poland but for most employers it either means that the employee is a scammer or that he is insane - which means you want to get rid of him either way. People usually come up with such bullshit leaves when they fear they may be getting fired and want to postpone that (under Polish law, it is much more difficult to fire someone who is on a legitimate sick leave, and you get paid - first by the employer and then by the insurer - when you are on the sick leave so you don't lose your remuneration).
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 03:44:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 04:18:02 PM
The other problem with the Australian beach stress therapy narrative is: how did Captain Scammy know how long the stress was going to last when he bought his tickets?
This is actually the part that is not controversial - if it works as it does in Poland, if you get a medical leave, the doctor ordains you X number of days for your leave. If, at the end of the period, you still feel bad, you can go to the doctor to have it extended, but the duration of the leave is not shortened because "you felt better already".
As I'm currently experiencing, Austrian doctors will write you ill open ended at times and make you come in for follow ups and actually enter the date when you're fit to go back to work when that's actually the case.
Quote from: garbon on March 13, 2013, 05:29:42 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stressed-you-bet-i-was-shark-wrestler-paul-marshallsea-hailed-as-a-hero-is-sacked-because-he-was-on-sick-leave-8531441.html
He's claiming that his GP told him to. Charity is lawyered up and saying nothing.
QuoteWhere do I now get a job? There's not much call for shark wrestlers in Merthyr Tydfil."
At least he kept his sense of humour. :D
Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 04:57:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 03:44:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 04:18:02 PM
The other problem with the Australian beach stress therapy narrative is: how did Captain Scammy know how long the stress was going to last when he bought his tickets?
This is actually the part that is not controversial - if it works as it does in Poland, if you get a medical leave, the doctor ordains you X number of days for your leave. If, at the end of the period, you still feel bad, you can go to the doctor to have it extended, but the duration of the leave is not shortened because "you felt better already".
As I'm currently experiencing, Austrian doctors will write you ill open ended at times and make you come in for follow ups and actually enter the date when you're fit to go back to work when that's actually the case.
Yeah seems a bit odd to give an arbitrary amount of time off / stick to that even if the patient is better.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: grumbler on March 13, 2013, 03:11:48 PMUnless his job was harder than wresting sharks, I don't see how he can justify wrestling sharks and being unable to do his (their) job.
Well, I think the shark thing was pretty improvised.
Disability isn't about planning, it is about ability.
QuoteMaybe I'm unclear on the concept of disability leave, but if the disability is stress related then taking a relaxing vacation (impromptu shark wrestling notwithstanding) seems entirely appropriate.
The concept of simultaneous disability for "stress" (as opposed to vacation to relieve stress) does sound rather bogus, but it sounds to me more like the doctor cooperating in the scam than that these two were really so disabled by stress that they could not take vacation(but could take a nice "relaxing" "disability leave" to Australia).
Had these people been on vacation,rather than claiming to be disabled, this would not have arisen.
QuoteWhat are you supposed to do on stress leave?
I have never heard of "stress leave" so I have no idea what I am supposed to do when on it.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
I don't know of anyone who took "stress leave" who was with the same organization for a significant amount of time after they returned.
Medical leave they're pretty good with. Heck even if you have to take leave to go to rehab their good with. But "stress"?
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:45:33 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
I don't know of anyone who took "stress leave" who was with the same organization for a significant amount of time after they returned.
Medical leave they're pretty good with. Heck even if you have to take leave to go to rehab their good with. But "stress"?
Well yeah stress leave sounds like it'd be a big old signifier that you can't handle the job (or don't want to).
Quote from: Barrister on March 14, 2013, 09:45:33 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 13, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
You going to tell me that employers don't look upon something like "stress-related" with anything less than disdain and contempt?
I don't know of anyone who took "stress leave" who was with the same organization for a significant amount of time after they returned.
Medical leave they're pretty good with. Heck even if you have to take leave to go to rehab their good with. But "stress"?
I can only imagine with what distain and contempt managing partners at my firm would consider a claim to being "stressed" - and with what false concern and kid gloves they would handle it. :lol:
Fact is, in big downtown law, more or less everyone is pretty permanently stressed.
Here's how stress leave would be handled at my company.
"You're under so much stress that you can't work? Ok, then you can leave." :)
Quote from: Caliga on March 14, 2013, 10:31:51 AM
Here's how stress leave would be handled at my company.
"You're under so much stress that you can't work? Ok, then you can leave." :)
You have to be a bit more circumspect about pissing off a lawyer while simultaneously giving him or her a lot of free time. :D
Quote from: Malthus on March 14, 2013, 10:26:12 AM
Fact is, in big downtown law, more or less everyone is pretty permanently stressed.
They should offer yoga classes during your lunch hour.
Handing out squeezy balls would be cheaper.
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 08:35:17 AM
Quote from: Syt on March 14, 2013, 04:57:57 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 14, 2013, 03:44:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 13, 2013, 04:18:02 PM
The other problem with the Australian beach stress therapy narrative is: how did Captain Scammy know how long the stress was going to last when he bought his tickets?
This is actually the part that is not controversial - if it works as it does in Poland, if you get a medical leave, the doctor ordains you X number of days for your leave. If, at the end of the period, you still feel bad, you can go to the doctor to have it extended, but the duration of the leave is not shortened because "you felt better already".
As I'm currently experiencing, Austrian doctors will write you ill open ended at times and make you come in for follow ups and actually enter the date when you're fit to go back to work when that's actually the case.
Yeah seems a bit odd to give an arbitrary amount of time off / stick to that even if the patient is better.
It's essentially up to the doctor as to how to handle it--some doctors will fill out the paperwork with a specific return date, others will leave it open-ended--but most employers will press for the employee to obtain a specified date from the doctor as to when they can return to work; the employer generally feels that they can plan how to cover the employee's absence better that way. Granted, if the employee is still unwell at the end of that time, the doctor can still refuse to release them and extend the leave (keeping in mind that under FMLA, the employer only has to allow you 12 weeks a year of medical leave--after that they can terminate you if you're still not able to return to work).
If the doctor does put you out for 8 weeks, but you feel fine after 7, you can go back and ask the doctor to release you early, but especially if you're on hourly wages instead of salary, your employer might or might not have work for you that week on such short notice anyway. A lot of people wouldn't bother trying, unless they really needed the wages (in the US, employers aren't legally required to pay you while you're out on medical leave. Some do, because of contractual obligations or do so voluntarily, but most don't).
I've seen all sorts of different situations arise with medical leave. Employee who feel that they're recovered plenty well enough to come back to work, but whose doctors won't release them early; employees who are clearly well enough to come back to work but who are deliberately putting off going back to the doctor because they know he'll release them and they want to stay out as long as possible; employees who clearly don't need to be on medical leave but whose doctor is willing to write up the paperwork for them and say that they do need to be on leave as long as they pay for an office visit (and on some occasions, I've suspected that they've asked for a little bit of extra pay); doctors who will tell you over the phone that your employee definately needs to go out on leave, but don't want to be bothered with actually filling out the paperwork; people who are clearly unwell and need to go to the doctor but won't because they're afraid that the doctor will put them on leave and they don't want to go; etc.
Darling, I went on leave. No need to explain it to me.
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 11:29:32 AM
Darling, I went on leave. No need to explain it to me.
Cool, but even though it was posted in response to you, it wasn't just for your benefit.
Quote from: dps on March 14, 2013, 11:33:59 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 11:29:32 AM
Darling, I went on leave. No need to explain it to me.
Cool, but even though it was posted in response to you, it wasn't just for your benefit.
:(
So it seems that most of the people in this thread who object to the fellow wrestling sharks while on stress leave in Australia object to the whole concept of "stress leave" altogether rather than whether it's taken in Australia or whether one wrestles sharks or not while taking it.
Quote from: Jacob on March 14, 2013, 11:43:36 AM
So it seems that most of the people in this thread who object to the fellow wrestling sharks while on stress leave in Australia object to the whole concept of "stress leave" altogether rather than whether it's taken in Australia or whether one wrestles sharks or not while taking it.
Stress leave in theory may be a good idea theoretically, if easily abusable, to me. I mean it might be good if somebody is seriously about to crack under the pressure for them to take a week off before some serious crap goes down. But people pretending to be sick is already pretty rampant.
As far as the thread, generally people like to brag about how hardcore and ruthless their workplace is while they post on Languish during business hours.
Quote from: Jacob on March 14, 2013, 11:43:36 AM
So it seems that most of the people in this thread who object to the fellow wrestling sharks while on stress leave in Australia object to the whole concept of "stress leave" altogether rather than whether it's taken in Australia or whether one wrestles sharks or not while taking it.
I think most people are objecting to it because they feel that the guy was basically lying about being stressed in order to take a nice vacation. While many if not most people goof off from time to time in ways more or less dubious (like posting to Languish while at 'work' ;) ) there is a natural human tendancy to have a laugh when someone else gets caught in some spectactular manner doing it.
While I quite agree that wrestling sharks doesn't prove he was in fact lying about being incapacitated by stress, the circumstances of the case tend on the whole to substantiate the "objector's" theory.
Quote from: Jacob on March 14, 2013, 11:43:36 AM
So it seems that most of the people in this thread who object to the fellow wrestling sharks while on stress leave in Australia object to the whole concept of "stress leave" altogether rather than whether it's taken in Australia or whether one wrestles sharks or not while taking it.
I don't have a problem with "stress leave" as a concept. And by the way it isn't some kind of separate leave - it's medical leave due to stress.
It is however easily abused IMO. I've seen too many doctors willing to say just about anything for their patients (and not corruptly - they just accept what their patient says at face value and do not look critically at it).
An old, old gf (who was also a lawyer at M's firm) went on stress leave. They couldn't say no, of course - she had a note from the doctor. But she was self-aware enough to go and find a different job while on leave, and never returned.
I've wondered if dating her led to my own being fired (as it happened while she was on leave). It may have contributed, but I had always struggled to find enough work within the firm...
Quote from: Jacob on March 14, 2013, 11:43:36 AM
So it seems that most of the people in this thread who object to the fellow wrestling sharks while on stress leave in Australia object to the whole concept of "stress leave" altogether rather than whether it's taken in Australia or whether one wrestles sharks or not while taking it.
Again "stress leave" is a misnomer. If there is some underlying mental illness or other medical condition which is causing the stress then that certainly requires treatment and accommodation of some sort. But if there is no such underlying illness (as appears to be the case in this fact pattern) then termination is warranted.
It boils down to the employee lying about being unable to work for medical reasons.
Quote from: Jacob on March 13, 2013, 06:12:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on March 13, 2013, 06:07:00 PMIf that is true, then that is one doctor I would enjoy having under cross examination.
Heh :lol:
Did you see the Prenda Law thread, by the way?
no, I think I missed that one.
The trouble is that it's fundamentally subjective and therefore easy to get a busy docor to sign you off.
I'm not getting the whole slackers charter vibe from what I've encountered in real world situations; a few of my friends/acquaintances have taken leave from work due to stress, before going back to work.
And if there's an underlying theme, it's their responsible people in highish-mid level to high level corporate jobs, who've gotten into a 'state' often because they're thrown ever increasing responsibilities, accept them and eventually 'burn out'.
To a man, none of them are slackers/on the fiddle and I'd suggest more people here wait till they're in their mid to late 40s with a high pressure job before passing judgement, because some of you could well experience something similar.
As to this case, seems like these two people were the driving force behind the charity, before it grew too big and it could well be the case that the professionalising NGO/charity types have been brought in and are now doing what they do best, that is losing sight of the point of the charity and establishing their own nice little cosy administrative/political empires.
Seen this happen before with charities, so I could imagine the politics of the job might generate a lot of stress; And now the revolution is complete, so to speak.
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 02:53:03 PM
As to this case, seems like these two people were the driving force behind the charity, before it grew too big and it could well be the case that the professionalising NGO/charity types have been brought in and are now doing what they do best, that is losing sight of the point of the charity and establishing their own nice little cosy administrative/political empires.
Does it seem that way because of things you've read or because you're sympathetic to them?
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 02:53:03 PM
I'm not getting the whole slackers charter vibe from what I've encountered in real world situations; a few of my friends/acquaintances have taken leave from work due to stress, before going back to work.
And if there's an underlying theme, it's their responsible people in highish-mid level to high level corporate jobs, who've gotten into a 'state' often because they're thrown ever increasing responsibilities, accept them and eventually 'burn out'.
To a man, none of them are slackers/on the fiddle and I'd suggest more people here wait till they're in their mid to late 40s with a high pressure job before passing judgement, because some of you could well experience something similar.
At least in America though, it wouldn't do well for said people if they were to reveal the reason they took medical leave. Sort of like how I didn't tell my work was depressed when I took disability. Stress/depression don't engender corporations to look kindly.
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 03:29:59 PM
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 02:53:03 PM
I'm not getting the whole slackers charter vibe from what I've encountered in real world situations; a few of my friends/acquaintances have taken leave from work due to stress, before going back to work.
And if there's an underlying theme, it's their responsible people in highish-mid level to high level corporate jobs, who've gotten into a 'state' often because they're thrown ever increasing responsibilities, accept them and eventually 'burn out'.
To a man, none of them are slackers/on the fiddle and I'd suggest more people here wait till they're in their mid to late 40s with a high pressure job before passing judgement, because some of you could well experience something similar.
At least in America though, it wouldn't do well for said people if they were to reveal the reason they took medical leave. Sort of like how I didn't tell my work was depressed when I took disability. Stress/depression don't engender corporations to look kindly.
Unfortunately that is a problem that shouldn't be and it appears to be the result of differences in national corporate cultures.
In two cases involving two good friends in quite senior jobs, both were dealt with sympathetically by the multi-nationals invovled. Over here there seems to be established practice has to how to proceed, both were given large amounts of time of, months, and went through a programme of CBT etc.
Seems to work and probably costs the corporation less in the long run.
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
Seems to work and probably costs the corporation less in the long run.
Quite honestly I'm not sure that's true. Why opt for the executive whom you know to suffer from stress when you can get one that doesn't need to go out on leave?
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
Seems to work and probably costs the corporation less in the long run.
Quite honestly I'm not sure that's true. Why opt for the executive whom you know to suffer from stress when you can get one that doesn't need to go out on leave?
Take another example, a college friend of mine, a director of a large financial institution, involved in rapidly growing it through M&A, travelling most places by executive jet etc.
They're not suddenly going to say, he's wobbling, bin him and we'll get someone else in to take over, just wouldn't work.
With him they followed basically the same process, just much more compressed and put him back to work.
The cynic in me would say the institution patched him up just enough to get another couple of years out of him and through those important corporate events.
This guy basically never had a family life, if he was with them, he'd still be working, locking himself away to work even whilst family events were on-going, putting in an appearance for 1/2 an hour before getting back to work at home.
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 14, 2013, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: mongers on March 14, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
Seems to work and probably costs the corporation less in the long run.
Quite honestly I'm not sure that's true. Why opt for the executive whom you know to suffer from stress when you can get one that doesn't need to go out on leave?
Take another example, a college friend of mine, a director of a large financial institution, involved in rapidly growing it through M&A, travelling most places by executive jet etc.
They're not suddenly going to say, he's wobbling, bin him and we'll get someone else in to take over, just wouldn't work.
With him they followed basically the same process, just much more compressed and put him back to work.
The cynic in me would say the institution patched him up just enough to get another couple of years out of him and through those important corporate events.
This guy basically never had a family life, if he was with them, he'd still be working, locking himself away to work even whilst family events were on-going, putting in an appearance for 1/2 an hour before getting back to work at home.
Well I think it definitely depends on individual circumstances and how easy or not it might be to transition that individual's duties to someone else (and of course perceived risk of the individual falling into a hole again).
As a lowly analyst, it would have / was very easy for them to transition my job away.