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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 11:33:29 AM

Title: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 11:33:29 AM
QuotePolish becomes England's second language
Data from 2011 census reveals 546,000 people in England and Wales speak Polish

Polish is now the main language spoken in England and Wales after English and Welsh, according to 2011 census data released by the Office of National Statistics.

The language-speaking figures recorded for the first time from a survey of 56.1 million residents of England and Wales show 546,000 speak Polish. It is now the second main language in England. There are still slightly more Welsh speakers in Wales at 562,000.

The next biggest main languages are the south Asian languages of Punjabi, Urdu, Bengali and Gujarati, followed by Arabic, French, Chinese and Portuguese. The statisticians said they recorded over 100 different languages and 49 main languages with more than 15,000 users.

English was the biggest of that group and Swedish the smallest.

Chinese people alone listed 67 different languages or dialects, although a minority of those were different spellings of the same language. All but three of the London boroughs, excluding the City, Richmond and Havering, have residents speaking more than 100 main languages, the ONS said. Hillingdon is the most linguistically diverse, with 107 languages listed, followed by Newham, with 103.

Some of the languages are in a tiny minority. For example, there was only one person in Barnet who said they spoke Caribbean creole and one person in Bexley.

58 people speak Scottish Gaelic, 33 speak Manx Gaelic and 629 speak Romany.

Ealing is the nation's hotspot for Polish speaking, Slough for Punjabi/Urdu, Leicester for Gujarati, Kensington for French and Manchester for Cantonese and Mandarin.

One million households have no residents with English as a main language, although most had some proficiency in English, the ONS said.

Only 138,000 people could not speak English at all.

"The West Midlands is the region with the lowest percentage of people that can speak English very well or well at 72%" said Roma Chappell, census director. It was the region that also had the highest number of people who can't speak English at all.

The latest figures from the 2011 census also revealed how people in England and Wales get to work. The university cities of Cambridge and Oxford were the cycling capitals with 18% and 10% of their populations commuting on two wheels but London had the most cyclists, with the number more than doubling from 77,000 in 2001 to 161,000 in 2011. Half of London residents travel using public transport but 2% now use bikes and 9% of the people of Hackney in east London cycle to work.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/30/polish-becomes-englands-second-language

Ok I didn't expect this.  :lol:

Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 11:44:12 AM
 :(
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 11:45:10 AM
Since, for some reason, the article provides no link for the data so you can see how many speakers the other languages have I am not sure how significant of a feat this is.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
I think we found the source of Britain's productivity decline mystery.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 11:49:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
I think we found the source of Britain's productivity decline mystery.

Considering Poland has one of the faster growing economies in the EU, not sure what it is.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Darth Wagtaros on January 30, 2013, 11:57:51 AM
How ghastly.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Tamas on January 30, 2013, 12:05:38 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 11:49:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
I think we found the source of Britain's productivity decline mystery.

Considering Poland has one of the faster growing economies in the EU, not sure what it is.

east euro work morale?
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on January 30, 2013, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 11:45:10 AM
Since, for some reason, the article provides no link for the data so you can see how many speakers the other languages have I am not sure how significant of a feat this is.

It will be a press release from the 2011 census, there will be vast amounts of info over at the Office of National Statistics.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 12:14:31 PM
:nelson:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

Could be worse.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 30, 2013, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 11:45:10 AM
Since, for some reason, the article provides no link for the data so you can see how many speakers the other languages have I am not sure how significant of a feat this is.

It will be a press release from the 2011 census, there will be vast amounts of info over at the Office of National Statistics.


Ok looking at that site the Poles more than double their nearest competitor, Urdu, which has only about 200,000 so it is not like it that hard to be #3 after English and Welsh.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

Could be worse.

Yeah, it could be America's 1st language.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 12:34:11 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 30, 2013, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 11:45:10 AM
Since, for some reason, the article provides no link for the data so you can see how many speakers the other languages have I am not sure how significant of a feat this is.

It will be a press release from the 2011 census, there will be vast amounts of info over at the Office of National Statistics.


Ok looking at that site the Poles more than double their nearest competitor, Urdu, which has only about 200,000 so it is not like it that hard to be #3 after English and Welsh.

And apparently the Chinese misspelled their language - but it does not say if this means each spelling was counter separately.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 12:47:06 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 11:49:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
I think we found the source of Britain's productivity decline mystery.

Considering Poland has one of the faster growing economies in the EU, not sure what it is.

When you start from rock bottom growth shouldnt be that hard to achieve.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: merithyn on January 30, 2013, 12:55:39 PM
From what I understood when I lived up there, Chicago has the second most Polish speakers in the world, second only to Warsaw.

That could just be rumor, but it was commonly said.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:01:22 PM
Quote from: merithyn on January 30, 2013, 12:55:39 PM
From what I understood when I lived up there, Chicago has the second most Polish speakers in the world, second only to Warsaw.

That could just be rumor, but it was commonly said.
I believe it.  Our Chicago office has a handful of dudes with Polish names who fluently speak Polish as well as English.  Last Christmas we had this work outing thing where we gambled with pretend money and those bastards were speaking to each other in Polish in order to coordinate their wagers, etc. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 01:04:20 PM
A bank I visited in Chicago had an entire customer service section that spoke Polish.  And several of the other staff apparently spoke some as well. 
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:09:33 PM
I should mention too that every one of those guys is really smart, cool, and works hard.  I'm not sure if that's an endorsement of Poland since maybe all of Poland's best and brightest were smart enough to GTFO.  I know I'd flee a country wedged between pre-WWII Germany and Russia. :)
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 01:12:27 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:09:33 PM
I should mention too that every one of those guys is really smart, cool, and works hard.  I'm not sure if that's an endorsement of Poland since maybe all of Poland's best and brightest were smart enough to GTFO.  I know I'd flee a country wedged between pre-WWII Germany and Russia. :)

Do you make it a point to tell them that a lot, and express your surprise that they're not at all like the stereotype? :P
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:13:50 PM
I haven't yet but... great idea. :cool:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: merithyn on January 30, 2013, 01:14:40 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:09:33 PM
I should mention too that every one of those guys is really smart, cool, and works hard.  I'm not sure if that's an endorsement of Poland since maybe all of Poland's best and brightest were smart enough to GTFO.  I know I'd flee a country wedged between pre-WWII Germany and Russia. :)

I worked with a number of Polish people when I lived up there, and they were all pretty much the same as you describe. Many of those I worked with weren't long off the boat, and had moved to Chicago to be with family. I took that to mean that Polish people, in general, don't live up to the stereotype at all.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Now that I think about it, one of the guys is named Vlad and I don't think that's a Polish name.  But I have seen him talking to another guy who I KNOW is Polish (his name is Wojciech) in what I assumed was the same horrific-sounding language.  Is it possible that some Slavic languages are mutually intelligible? :hmm:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 01:35:28 PM
Did the Chicago Polacks have magic?
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 01:38:52 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 01:35:28 PM
Did the Chicago Polacks have magic?

:lol:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Now that I think about it, one of the guys is named Vlad and I don't think that's a Polish name.  But I have seen him talking to another guy who I KNOW is Polish (his name is Wojciech) in what I assumed was the same horrific-sounding language.  Is it possible that some Slavic languages are mutually intelligible? :hmm:

Slavic is the last major Indo-European language group to diverge into different languages back around 1000AD, so I'd think so. 
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Gups on January 30, 2013, 01:54:16 PM
My local high street has a shop which specialises in Polish and Brazilian groceries  :wacko:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Barrister on January 30, 2013, 01:59:29 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Now that I think about it, one of the guys is named Vlad and I don't think that's a Polish name.  But I have seen him talking to another guy who I KNOW is Polish (his name is Wojciech) in what I assumed was the same horrific-sounding language.  Is it possible that some Slavic languages are mutually intelligible? :hmm:

I'm told that if you know Ukrainian, you can manage to make yourself understood in Russia or Poland.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 02:07:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2013, 01:59:29 PM
I'm told that if you know Ukrainian, you can manage to make yourself understood in Russia or Poland.

If Ukrainian is so close to Polish any particular reason the Ukrainians felt so much more loyalty to the Muscovite Tsar instead of the Polish King during their period of rivalry?  I guess it was solely a religious thing then but for some reason I felt that the ethnic ties were alot close as well.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Barrister on January 30, 2013, 02:40:12 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 30, 2013, 02:07:09 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 30, 2013, 01:59:29 PM
I'm told that if you know Ukrainian, you can manage to make yourself understood in Russia or Poland.

If Ukrainian is so close to Polish any particular reason the Ukrainians felt so much more loyalty to the Muscovite Tsar instead of the Polish King during their period of rivalry?  I guess it was solely a religious thing then but for some reason I felt that the ethnic ties were alot close as well.

It was a religious thing, but it wasn't a feeling of "loyalty".  Khmelnitsky, the leader of the cossacks, had no royal blood and thus had little legitimacy in the eyes of the world.  Ultimately they accepted Russian sovereignty, though it wasn't felt it would be don in name only, rather than lead to the incorporation of Ukraine into the Russian empire.

Supposedly they had a similar offer from the Ottomans, but did go with Russia due to religion.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 30, 2013, 03:42:36 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

I may be wrong, having lived in Atlanta so long, but I think we have more Spanish speakers than people who sound like Ide.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 03:47:45 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2013, 03:42:36 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

I may be wrong, having lived in Atlanta so long, but I think we have more Spanish speakers than people who sound like Ide.

The problem with Southernese is you can understand them most of the time.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 03:48:04 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:13:50 PM
I haven't yet but... great idea. :cool:

Do it.  Then you & your wife can do a site called polishpeopleloveus.com :)
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Razgovory on January 30, 2013, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

Could be worse.

The language of backstabbing traitors?  What is worse then that?
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: mongers on January 30, 2013, 08:04:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 03:47:45 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 30, 2013, 03:42:36 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

I may be wrong, having lived in Atlanta so long, but I think we have more Spanish speakers than people who sound like Ide.

The problem with Southernese is some of us don't have the time to wait to find out what they're saying.

:bowler:

Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Ed Anger on January 30, 2013, 08:06:21 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2013, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

Could be worse.

The language of backstabbing traitors?  What is worse then that?

Geordie
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 30, 2013, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 12:26:40 PM
Quote from: PDH on January 30, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Don't laugh, America's 2nd language is Southern.

Could be worse.

The language of backstabbing traitors?  What is worse then that?

Boston accent, thick NY accent, Ebonics, and Appalachian accent all annoy me more than southern. 
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 09:06:17 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 30, 2013, 08:37:12 PM
Boston accent, thick NY accent, Ebonics, and Appalachian accent all annoy me more than southern.
You might as well go ahead and explain that Appalachian dialect is distinct from the southern dialects before some other poster ignorant of that fact calls you an idiot. :)
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: DGuller on January 30, 2013, 09:07:27 PM
Wow, Brits must really shit a lot.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: mongers on January 30, 2013, 09:48:03 PM
I agree some British accents are highly polished.  :bowler:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Neil on January 30, 2013, 10:02:39 PM
Calling Polish a language is stretching the truth a little.  It's just a dialect of barbarian Russian.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Josquius on January 30, 2013, 11:09:15 PM
Super surprising. I'd have thought there'd be more than that speaking urdu. And only just over 100,000 not speaking English at all? I suspect lying, or at least heavy truth bending (i.e. taking "at all" very literally as not even knowing hello)
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Eddie Teach on January 31, 2013, 12:45:50 AM
Heck, most native Brits are barely intelligible.  :P
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Queequeg on January 31, 2013, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Now that I think about it, one of the guys is named Vlad and I don't think that's a Polish name.  But I have seen him talking to another guy who I KNOW is Polish (his name is Wojciech) in what I assumed was the same horrific-sounding language.  Is it possible that some Slavic languages are mutually intelligible? :hmm:

Slavic is the last major Indo-European language group to diverge into different languages back around 1000AD, so I'd think so.
Very good, Timmy. This works more or less as you would guess-Czech-Polish-Rusyn& Ukrainian-Russian. One can often understand simple conversations to the left or right, and many have education in Russian.  South Slavic languages are a bit different due Balkan influence.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Queequeg on January 31, 2013, 01:20:51 AM
I really hate the sound of Polish, but Russian has a real bipolar charm to it, and Czech has a harsh near-Celtic  appeal. I just love the Czechs, though. Favorite small European people.  :wub:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 01:33:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 31, 2013, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Now that I think about it, one of the guys is named Vlad and I don't think that's a Polish name.  But I have seen him talking to another guy who I KNOW is Polish (his name is Wojciech) in what I assumed was the same horrific-sounding language.  Is it possible that some Slavic languages are mutually intelligible? :hmm:

Slavic is the last major Indo-European language group to diverge into different languages back around 1000AD, so I'd think so.
Very good, Timmy. This works more or less as you would guess-Czech-Polish-Rusyn& Ukrainian-Russian. One can often understand simple conversations to the left or right, and many have education in Russian.  South Slavic languages are a bit different due Balkan influence.

Russian and Polish are not similar (not sure if that's what you are saying or not) as they belong to different language groups. Polish, Czech and Ukrainian can be understood mutually, though.

Ukrainian sounds very harsh to native Polish speakers - it has very "hard" pronunciation, compared to Polish.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Syt on January 31, 2013, 01:54:45 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 31, 2013, 12:45:50 AM
Heck, most native Brits are barely intelligible.  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BncDeMO_en0
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: CountDeMoney on January 31, 2013, 09:11:39 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 30, 2013, 11:49:08 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 30, 2013, 11:46:59 AM
I think we found the source of Britain's productivity decline mystery.

Considering Poland has one of the faster growing economies in the EU, not sure what it is.

Piling rocks must be an improvement over the usual mud farming.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Grinning_Colossus on January 31, 2013, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 01:33:58 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 31, 2013, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 30, 2013, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: Caliga on January 30, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Now that I think about it, one of the guys is named Vlad and I don't think that's a Polish name.  But I have seen him talking to another guy who I KNOW is Polish (his name is Wojciech) in what I assumed was the same horrific-sounding language.  Is it possible that some Slavic languages are mutually intelligible? :hmm:

Slavic is the last major Indo-European language group to diverge into different languages back around 1000AD, so I'd think so.
Very good, Timmy. This works more or less as you would guess-Czech-Polish-Rusyn& Ukrainian-Russian. One can often understand simple conversations to the left or right, and many have education in Russian.  South Slavic languages are a bit different due Balkan influence.

Russian and Polish are not similar (not sure if that's what you are saying or not) as they belong to different language groups. Polish, Czech and Ukrainian can be understood mutually, though.

They're East and West Slavic, respectively, but then the same is true of Ukrainian and Polish. If Polish and Ukrainian are mutually intelligible, and Ukrainian and Russian are as well, then they can't be that distantly related.
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: mongers on January 31, 2013, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 31, 2013, 01:20:51 AM
I really hate the sound of Polish, but Russian has a real bipolar charm to it, and Czech has a harsh near-Celtic  appeal. I just love the Czechs, though. Favorite small European people. :wub:

Especially as they invented Chess and always want to be you best friend.  :cool:
Title: Re: Polish becomes England's second language
Post by: Queequeg on January 31, 2013, 03:44:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 31, 2013, 01:33:58 AM
Russian and Polish are not similar (not sure if that's what you are saying or not) as they belong to different language groups. Polish, Czech and Ukrainian can be understood mutually, though.

Ukrainian sounds very harsh to native Polish speakers - it has very "hard" pronunciation, compared to Polish.
I meant one to the left or right.  I'd be surprised if Czechs could understand Ukrainian that well.

Most of the Slavic languages aren't that far off.  The Slavic migration out of eastern Poland/western Ukraine/Belarus only happened about 1400 years ago.