A friend of mine recently self-published a novel that he's been working on for something like 20 years. At no time did he ever try to pitch it to a publisher. He's charging $2.99 for the book. (Nightflower (https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/261735))
Now, I read the first draft of the book, and it was pretty good. It needed a lot of polishing and a good bit of editing, but the story was interesting. It's also a decent time for it to hit the market since it's about a teenage girl vampire. (Yeah, not my kind of thing, but he's a friend so I bit the bullet and helped him out.) I think that had he sent it out to a few of the smaller publishers, there would have been a decent chance of it being looked at, especially since he's planning on it being a trilogy.
I'm wondering what you all think of self-publishing. I don't really know how it works anymore, but I know that ages ago if you self-published you risked not having the book published by a big house later due to copyright issues. On top of that, my experience with self-published books hasn't been very positive since they almost always need a lot of editing (not just copy editing, but actual editing). That kind of always makes me wince when I hear something is self-published, and I'm guessing that I'm not alone on that. Or am I just being an old lady snob?
If he started working on a teeny vampire book 20 years ago I think somebody should hire this guy as a futurist. Screw this writing shit and get him into trendspotting.
I wrap my stuff around bricks, and distribute them accordingly.
Quote from: Viking on December 04, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
If he started working on a teeny vampire book 20 years ago I think somebody should hire this guy as a futurist. Screw this writing shit and get him into trendspotting.
Probably more like 25 years ago. It started with an RPG. :P
Quote from: merithyn on December 04, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on December 04, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
If he started working on a teeny vampire book 20 years ago I think somebody should hire this guy as a futurist. Screw this writing shit and get him into trendspotting.
Probably more like 25 years ago. It started with an RPG. :P
He's still a virgin, right? :P
Well best of luck to him.
If you've got the time and desire, self-publishing seems quick and easy with chance for profit. :)
Quote from: HVC on December 04, 2012, 10:36:17 PM
He's still a virgin, right? :P
Well best of luck to him.
He's been happily married for 17 years, with twin boys the same age as Riley.
That's not a no :D
Another poster here self publishes, now that I recall. Don't know if it's outside TBR knoweldge, so I won't mention who. Hopefully he'll stop by and share his experience. Shockingly (:P) writing isn't my strength, but self publishing seems like an interesting possibility for someone who enjoys writing.
I guess self publishing can work - but you have to make sure you have a marketing plan. Just putting the book on Amazon for download and hoping people buy it is not enough. You need to raise awareness that the book is there and why people should buy it. You need a cover that draws people in. If possible, try to create word of mouth through friends, facebook, whatever. Create a website, hold contests.
All that will still not help much if the book is amateurish, badly edited and has errors in orthography and grammar.
Quote from: Syt on December 04, 2012, 11:39:15 PM
I guess self publishing can work - but you have to make sure you have a marketing plan. Just putting the book on Amazon for download and hoping people buy it is not enough. You need to raise awareness that the book is there and why people should buy it. You need a cover that draws people in. If possible, try to create word of mouth through friends, facebook, whatever. Create a website, hold contests.
All that will still not help much if the book is amateurish, badly edited and has errors in orthography and grammar.
Good points, all.
I'll talk to him to see what his marketing plan is beyond, "I mentioned it on Facebook." :P My best guess is that he is just kind of hoping that word of mouth makes things happen for him. Unfortunately, it rarely works that way in the real world.
FWIW, I've just read the Prologue and Chapter One, and only found one typo. The writing is fairly solid, but the beginning never had many problems. I won't know until I delve more into it if he's fixed the issues with it from before. By the way, on Smashword, you can read a few of the chapters for free to decide if you want to buy it or not. If you like vampire/horror stories, it may be worth your time to check it out. No sparkly skin or happy family in this book. I promise. :D
Not a big fan of vampires, so I think I'll pass. :P
One example of successful self-publishing would be The Book With No Name by Anonymous which started publishing chapters of the story online and then the whole book at some point got picked up by a publisher after word of mouth spread far enough. It's an asbolutely silly action-trash-pulp book with bounty hunters, vampires, kung fu monks, a bit of True Romance and other action/horror/noir clichés, but a fun read. Couldn't finish the second book, though.
But I'd think its example is more the exception than the rule.
In other news: two more rejections for short stories for me! :lol:
Is it better than "Edmund: A Butler's Tale" by Gertrude Perkins?
The first thing I was taught is never to write for free and certainly never to pay for the privilege of being published.
For anyone considering self-publishing, I'd advise it's worth running the gauntlet of a couple of publishing house pitches first. The process offers the kind of industry feedback no amount of friends reading it could (albeit harsh) and instil discipline and a timetable to the process. And, yes, some much-needed editing of the final product.
There's some good advice here:
http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/thebusinessofwriting/a/How-To-Pitch-Your-Novel.htm (http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/thebusinessofwriting/a/How-To-Pitch-Your-Novel.htm)
Brazen's advice seems pretty sound. Also, there's a third option that's a little safer with respect to your wallet: print-on-demand. A writer friend of mine tends to use that option to get his books and cartoon compilations out in the wild. The tech's caught up to where there isn't that terrible a markup on POD books.
Does self-publishing cut off future possibilities to publish the same work though a major house? I didn't think so. If true, I say it's a great idea.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on December 05, 2012, 05:59:13 AM
Brazen's advice seems pretty sound. Also, there's a third option that's a little safer with respect to your wallet: print-on-demand. A writer friend of mine tends to use that option to get his books and cartoon compilations out in the wild. The tech's caught up to where there isn't that terrible a markup on POD books.
Is the bulk of self-publishing these days in hardcopy? I would think that everyone and their dog just dump their stuff on the ebook market?
Never gonna make money doing it but considering the miniscule odds of being properly published self-publishing could be fun. Gives a bit of a sense of achievment and having actually accomplished something to have written a book which is out there.
I've read a few. The common theme is terrible editing. Lot's of grammar mistakes, lot's of spelling mistakes, little things like incorrect names used and such.
There was an article in the Guardian about it at the weekend. Lots of people making money from it but as Syt says, marketing is the key.
Quote from: Tyr on December 05, 2012, 07:04:37 AM
Never gonna make money doing it
:huh:
Do you know what Impulse buy price point is?
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 05:53:07 AM
The first thing I was taught is never to write for free and certainly never to pay for the privilege of being published.
This place is pay-to-upload, so he's not writing for free, and he gets 85% of any sales, which is higher than any publishing house that I know of. Of course, it's 85% of $2.99 a pop, but still better than nothing.
QuoteFor anyone considering self-publishing, I'd advise it's worth running the gauntlet of a couple of publishing house pitches first. The process offers the kind of industry feedback no amount of friends reading it could (albeit harsh) and instil discipline and a timetable to the process. And, yes, some much-needed editing of the final product.
This, to me, is the bigger issue. If it's worth publishing, some publishing house somewhere will at least take the time to tell him how to fix it. And I'm sorry, but relying on friends to tell you how things are is usually pretty worthless. Few are willing to be brutally honest on how to fix it, and more than one friendship has been lost over this kind of thing. I helped him edit this one - being my usual, ahem, honest self - and he ended up pissed at me for months. I desecrated his baby! No, I told him how to make a good story into a really good novel.
QuoteThere's some good advice here:
http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/thebusinessofwriting/a/How-To-Pitch-Your-Novel.htm (http://fictionwriting.about.com/od/thebusinessofwriting/a/How-To-Pitch-Your-Novel.htm)
Nice link! Thanks. :)
Didn't I post a big article on this 6-12 months ago? :unsure:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 05, 2012, 09:11:57 AM
Didn't I post a big article on this 6-12 months ago? :unsure:
I dunno. Did you?
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 05:53:07 AM
The first thing I was taught is never to write for free
:hmm: I'm going to start charging you people for my pearls of wisdom.
Quote from: merithyn on December 04, 2012, 10:27:50 PM
my experience with self-published books hasn't been very positive since they almost always need a lot of editing (not just copy editing, but actual editing). That kind of always makes me wince when I hear something is self-published, and I'm guessing that I'm not alone on that. Or am I just being an old lady snob?
No, you're right. I've been recommended a lot of self-published books on Amazon, and they almost uniformly suck. At this point, if I see anything recommended as published by "Amazon Digital Services," I just hit "not interested" and move on to the next book.
Quote from: DGuller on December 05, 2012, 09:47:05 AM
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 05:53:07 AM
The first thing I was taught is never to write for free
:hmm: I'm going to start charging you people for my pearls of wisdom.
Regretably they are beyond price.
Quote from: ulmont on December 05, 2012, 10:01:15 AM
Quote from: merithyn on December 04, 2012, 10:27:50 PM
my experience with self-published books hasn't been very positive since they almost always need a lot of editing (not just copy editing, but actual editing). That kind of always makes me wince when I hear something is self-published, and I'm guessing that I'm not alone on that. Or am I just being an old lady snob?
No, you're right. I've been recommended a lot of self-published books on Amazon, and they almost uniformly suck. At this point, if I see anything recommended as published by "Amazon Digital Services," I just hit "not interested" and move on to the next book.
Yes.
Quote from: DGuller on December 05, 2012, 09:47:05 AM
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 05:53:07 AM
The first thing I was taught is never to write for free
:hmm: I'm going to start charging you people for my pearls of wisdom.
a blueberry for a word.
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
Every now and then my cursor hovers over the 99 cent buy now button, but then I read the description and wander off.
I've read a few from friends or friends of friends. The stories were mostly decent, but they were badly in need of a good editor. Nothing annoys me more than the common, new writer habits of using adverbs and over-explaining things, which tended to be rife throughout the books that I've read.
This book doesn't have a lot of that, mostly because I kind of beat it into my friend's head that that stuff is the mark of a rank amateur and/or a really crap novel, and he actually listened on that one.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
As said above, one, maybe. But it was already picked up by a publisher and lying on the shelf in my local bookstore when I became aware of it. The name/author also helped.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
A coworker's son once had a small collection of short stories self-published. Quality of writing aside, it wasn't a bad production.
I can see where the value of self-publishing can come in handy; it's something tangible to submit to others, or for writing contests, etc. But I think those exceptions aside, the biggest plus for self-publishing is for the writer. It's a sense of accomplishment, as someone already remarked.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
I read one which, in retrospect was probably self-published. A fictional (obv) diary or Mairy Antionette. I got it because I had a few days in Vesailles and it had a few five star reviews (probably from the author's mates). It wasn't badly written but it was deadly dull. I gave up half way through before she had even go to Versailles. So that was a couple of quid and three reading days downs the swannee.
Oh! And I also have Buddha Rhubbarb's chap book, which he self-published.
It's probably the best of the printed self-published books that I've gotten.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
Yup, many years ago in high school. A high school history teacher self-published a novel, and would lend a copy to any student who wanted to read it.
I borrowed a copy and read it. It wasn't bad ... it was an adventure novel, set in Victorian era London, all about a dapper gentleman who ran a spy ring with the help of a collection of young girls he rescued from a life of sex slavery and lodged in a school which he ran for wayward young ladies. These girls all worshipped him, and he used them to carry out spy missions.
I thanked him and gave it back, and to my utter lack of surprise a couple of years later he was fired for inappropriate behaviour with female students.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
Yeah. I got one at Borders once. Thought it had a lot of errors in it and was shoddily edited. Then I noticed the back where it was self published and it all became clear. I get the cheap sci fi books off Amazon, some of them self published. Same deal. Hit or miss on quality.
Quote from: Brazen on December 05, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Just out of interest, has anyone here read any self-published novels? I haven't.
I read one that a roommate from college published. Was dreadful but since all the proceeds were donated to a cancer society, wasn't entirely pointless.
If you write a good novel and work your ass off, maybe you can make a go of self-publishing. Even so, that's a rough row to hoe. If GaijinDuMoscu comes by, we can ask him... he was flogging his novel a little while ago.
I've published a few short stories and they haven't gotten anywhere. Maybe they suck, but even if they don't I haven't put the work into trying to take them anywhere... and it's a lot of work. If you're the kind of person who regularly tweets things that are interesting or write fascinating blog posts on a consistent basis you may have a go at it; or if you're one of the leading personalities on a huge message board. Other than that, I think it's low odds.
That said, of course I occasionally tend my own daydream of self-publishing and succeeding, but given the fact that I've never read anything self-published myself it's probably pretty unlikely. Should I ever write an actual novel, I expect I'll try to take it the traditional route and take my lumps that way.
I'll give my amatuer marketing take:
Hit every book forum that allows you to post an advertisement post. Mobileread did, at least last time I checked. Give away a goodly chunk to try to ensnare people. Or even give it away with a request for a donation if they like it on your website.
You want to build the brand(YOU, the author). Build up a fan base,even a smallish one, then start charging 3 bucks for it.
See, that's why this guy is richer then the rest of us.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 05, 2012, 08:53:59 PM
I'll give my amatuer marketing take:
Hit every book forum that allows you to post an advertisement post. Mobileread did, at least last time I checked. Give away a goodly chunk to try to ensnare people. Or even give it away with a request for a donation if they like it on your website.
You want to build the brand(YOU, the author). Build up a fan base,even a smallish one, then start charging 3 bucks for it.
Very good advice.
But depressing, as leaving aside the writing, it seems a per-requiste is you're a gifted marketeer.
Quote from: mongers on December 05, 2012, 09:46:25 PM
But depressing, as leaving aside the writing, it seems a per-requiste is you're a gifted marketeer.
I don't think that's depressing. The internet has made self-promotion so much easier.
I've read novels on the internet. Total freebies. Never bought anything though.
The thing is...there's so much floating around out there for free. A lot of tat but some OK stuff too. As Ed says you have to get a sizable fan base before you can think to start charging. Even getting people to give the time to read your books for free is an achievment.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 05, 2012, 08:17:57 AM
Quote from: Tyr on December 05, 2012, 07:04:37 AM
Never gonna make money doing it
:huh:
Do you know what Impulse buy price point is?
I do. But; :huh: