Nothing I haven't known since 2nd grade.
QuoteWhen People Worry About Math, the Brain Feels the Pain
ScienceDaily (Oct. 31, 2012) — Mathematics anxiety can prompt a response in the brain similar to when a person experiences physical pain, according to new research at the University of Chicago.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.sciencedaily.com%2F2012%2F10%2F121031213711.jpg%3F1351778997&hash=6e970d86bc0d37228ff37a21e939efeb1b6acbd6)
Using brain scans, scholars determined that the brain areas active when highly math-anxious people prepare to do math overlap with the same brain areas that register the threat of bodily harm -- and in some cases, physical pain.
"For someone who has math anxiety, the anticipation of doing math prompts a similar brain reaction as when they experience pain -- say, burning one's hand on a hot stove," said Sian Beilock, professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and a leading expert on math anxiety.
Surprisingly, the researchers found it was the anticipation of having to do math, and not actually doing math itself, that looked like pain in the brain. "The brain activation does not happen during math performance, suggesting that it is not the math itself that hurts; rather the anticipation of math is painful," added Ian Lyons, a 2012 PhD graduate in psychology from UChicago and a postdoctoral scholar at Western University in Ontario, Canada.
The two report their findings in a paper, "When Math Hurts: Math Anxiety Predicts Pain Network Activation in Anticipation of Doing Math," in the current issue of PLoS One.
For the study, the scholars worked with 14 adults who were shown to have math anxiety based on their responses to a series of questions about math. The questions gauged one's anxiety when receiving a math textbook, walking to math class or realizing math requirements for graduation. Additional tests showed that these individuals were not overly anxious in general; instead, their heightened sense of anxiety was specific to math-related situations.
The study volunteers were tested in an fMRI machine, which allowed researchers to examine brain activity as they did math. Volunteers were given mathematics equations to verify -- for example, the validity of the following equation: (12 x 4) -- 19 = 29. While in the fMRI scanner, subjects were also shown short word puzzles. For these puzzles, people saw a series of letters (for example: yrestym) and had to determine if reversing the order of the letters produced a correctly spelled English word.
The fMRI scans showed that the anticipation of math caused a response in the brain similar to physical pain. The higher a person's anxiety about math, the more anticipating math activated the posterior insula -- a fold of tissue located deep inside the brain just above the ear that is associated with registering direct threats to the body as well as the experience of pain. Interestingly, math anxiety levels were not associated with brain activity in the insula or in any other neural region when volunteers were doing math.
The work by Lyons and Beilock suggests that, for those with math anxiety, a painful sense of dread may begin long before a person sits down to take a math test. Previous research has shown that highly math anxious individuals tend to avoid math-related situations and even math-related career paths. The current work suggests that such avoidance stems in part from painful anxiety.
The current work is also consistent with other research from Beilock and Lyons, in which they showed that the mere anticipation of doing mathematics changes functioning in the brains of people with high levels of math anxiety. Beilock's work, supported by the National Science Foundation and the Department of Education, has also shown that mathematics anxiety can begin as early as first grade, and that female elementary school teachers often transmit their math anxiety to their female students.
This latest study points to the value of seeing math anxiety not just as a proxy for poor math ability, but as an indication there can be a real, negative psychological reaction to the prospect of doing math. This reaction needs to be addressed like any other phobia, the researchers said. Rather than simply piling on math homework for students who are anxious about math, students need active help to become more comfortable with the subject, Beilock said. Beilock's work has shown, for instance, that writing about math anxieties before a test can reduce one's worries and lead to better performance.
Beilock is the author of the best-selling book about stress and performance, "Choke: What The Secrets Of The Brain Reveal About Getting It Right When You Have To."
"Math anxiety"? You mean stupid?
This is absolutely not news to me. :glare:
I did find this bit interesting, though, especially the bolded part.
QuoteThe current work is also consistent with other research from Beilock and Lyons, in which they showed that the mere anticipation of doing mathematics changes functioning in the brains of people with high levels of math anxiety. Beilock's work, supported by the National Science Foundation and the Department of Education, has also shown that mathematics anxiety can begin as early as first grade, and that female elementary school teachers often transmit their math anxiety to their female students.
I seriously wonder why there's such a huge gender bias toward maths for men and against it for women. I know that there are exceptions - my daughter loves math while my eldest two boys hate it - but it really does seem to be a somewhat true stereotype.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 02:03:45 PM
female elementary school teachers often transmit their math anxiety to their female students.
Teachers are a corrosive influence on children and need to be destroyed.
I didn't like math at all. I still excelled at it. It's what men do.
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 02:21:29 PM
I seriously wonder why there's such a huge gender bias toward maths for men and against it for women. I know that there are exceptions - my daughter loves math while my eldest two boys hate it - but it really does seem to be a somewhat true stereotype.
I doubt it's anything genetic or evolutionary. More likely it has a self-reinforcing mechanism, or several. The one mentioned above could be one.
I also don't like math, but can still do it just fine.
Quote from: The Brain on November 01, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
I didn't like math at all. I still excelled at it. It's what men do.
I was always reading in math class, or writing short stories instead of working on problems. That sorta put a crimp in my mathematical development.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
I was always reading in math class, or writing short stories instead of working on problems. That sorta put a crimp in my mathematical development.
Whenever I had one of those tests on the scantron bubble paper, I would do an exercise while taking the test. I would come up with a story at the beginning, and for every answer I would decide beforehand that each answer (a,b,c,etc) corresponded to a different development in the story. How the events unfolded depended on which answers turned out to be the correct ones as I took the test. I came up with some crazy stuff that way.
It made the whole experience a lot more challenging. Especially since most of those tests had time limits.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 01, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
I didn't like math at all. I still excelled at it. It's what men do.
I was always reading in math class, or writing short stories instead of working on problems. That sorta put a crimp in my mathematical development.
You know, the gay brain is a lot like that of a woman...
Indeed.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2012, 02:36:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
I was always reading in math class, or writing short stories instead of working on problems. That sorta put a crimp in my mathematical development.
Whenever I had one of those tests on the scantron bubble paper, I would do an exercise while taking the test. I would come up with a story at the beginning, and for every answer I would decide beforehand that each answer (a,b,c,etc) corresponded to a different development in the story. How the events unfolded depended on which answers turned out to be the correct ones as I took the test. I came up with some crazy stuff that way.
It made the whole experience a lot more challenging. Especially since most of those tests had time limits.
Yeah, did that with the math section of my SATs. So much for MIT or Rensalaer.
Quote from: Neil on November 01, 2012, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 01, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
I didn't like math at all. I still excelled at it. It's what men do.
I was always reading in math class, or writing short stories instead of working on problems. That sorta put a crimp in my mathematical development.
You know, the gay brain is a lot like that of a woman...
I'm not gonna do what I don't wanna do.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2012, 02:30:02 PM
I doubt it's anything genetic or evolutionary. More likely it has a self-reinforcing mechanism, or several. The one mentioned above could be one.
I also don't like math, but can still do it just fine.
Oh, I figure it's socialized in some way, but the questions are why and how?
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 02:51:51 PM
Oh, I figure it's socialized in some way, but the questions are why and how?
Considering one of the traditional roles for women in western civilization is managing the family finances I have a hard time sorting out the why. As to the how, the women's studies class I took had some speculations around absolute correct answers and something about competition...which I found a little wooish. My wife hates math but she is certainly competitive and usually thinks her answers are absolutely correct :P
But it certainly exists, or at least the stereotype does. But isn't it true that girls tend to get better grades in math than boys, even though the boys do a bit better on standardized tests?
Women really need to get better at math so that they are prepared for their future single motherhood. :)
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2012, 03:15:51 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 02:51:51 PM
Oh, I figure it's socialized in some way, but the questions are why and how?
Considering one of the traditional roles for women in western civilization is managing the family finances I have a hard time sorting out the why. As to the how, the women's studies class I took had some speculations around absolute correct answers and something about competition...which I found a little wooish. My wife hates math but she is certainly competitive and usually thinks her answers are absolutely correct :P
But it certainly exists, or at least the stereotype does. But isn't it true that girls tend to get better grades in math than boys, even though the boys do a bit better on standardized tests?
I think that's only true up to middle school. At that point, girls start to do worse in math and science while boys start doing better. By high school, there's a distinct gap between boys and girls, with girls doing far worse than boys.
This is on average, of course. There are always exceptions, and it doesn't apply to Asian cultures. (I'm not sure about European cultures, but I think it's true of nations like Italy, Spain, and Ireland.) So, it's clearly societal, and there are whole studies being done to try to understand it. I don't think anyone has come up with a definitive reason for it.
I do know that my problem is that math wasn't taught to me as a foreign language. It was taught as though I already understood certain concepts, which I had never heard of. It made the whole process so frustrating that now I completely shut down when math comes up. I don't even want to hear about it, and I would guess that it's that pain thing kicking in.
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 03:56:31 PM
This is on average, of course. There are always exceptions, and it doesn't apply to Asian cultures.
We have been over this before and the exact same phenonmenon exists in Asian cultures. Remember when I showed you all those test results and you were suprised?
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 03:56:31 PM
I do know that my problem is that math wasn't taught to me as a foreign language. It was taught as though I already understood certain concepts, which I had never heard of. It made the whole process so frustrating that now I completely shut down when math comes up. I don't even want to hear about it, and I would guess that it's that pain thing kicking in.
Well if they doing great until Middle School, they clearly get the basic language and concepts.
Around middle school, the teachers get worse.
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2012, 04:02:11 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 03:56:31 PM
I do know that my problem is that math wasn't taught to me as a foreign language. It was taught as though I already understood certain concepts, which I had never heard of. It made the whole process so frustrating that now I completely shut down when math comes up. I don't even want to hear about it, and I would guess that it's that pain thing kicking in.
Well if they doing great until Middle School, they clearly get the basic language and concepts.
The language changes at Middle School. It goes into Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonometry, which uses a different language than basic math concepts. I'm still really good at the basic math stuff.
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:10:34 PM
The language changes at Middle School. It goes into Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonometry, which uses a different language than basic math concepts. I'm still really good at the basic math stuff.
The language changes from "here's some more cool stuff to learn" to "we're about to get into some really hard and scary stuff but you have to do it anyway".
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2012, 04:14:31 PM
The language changes from "here's some more cool stuff to learn" to "we're about to get into some really hard and scary stuff but you have to do it anyway".
2 + 2 = ? FUN
2 + x = 4 SCARY
I didn't notice any language change.
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2012, 04:16:18 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2012, 04:14:31 PM
The language changes from "here's some more cool stuff to learn" to "we're about to get into some really hard and scary stuff but you have to do it anyway".
2 + 2 = ? FUN
2 + x = 4 SCARY
To be honest, I had no problem with Algebra or Geometry. In fact, I was asked to be a tutor for Geometry. That stuff made sense. Then I got into Trigonometry, and it was like the teacher started speaking Russian. None of what he said made sense. When I asked him to explain it, he just kept talking in Russian. At a certain point, I said, "Peace out!" and dropped the class.
In the words of Boney M: Oh, those Russians!
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:21:27 PM
To be honest, I had no problem with Algebra or Geometry. In fact, I was asked to be a tutor for Geometry. That stuff made sense. Then I got into Trigonometry, and it was like the teacher started speaking Russian. None of what he said made sense. When I asked him to explain it, he just talking Russian. At a certain point, I said, "Peace out!" and dropped the class.
I had this exact experience many times, particularly in BC Calculus, but all my friends were doing it so peer pressure made me keep trying. I got it all eventually.
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:21:27 PM
To be honest, I had no problem with Algebra or Geometry. In fact, I was asked to be a tutor for Geometry. That stuff made sense. Then I got into Trigonometry, and it was like the teacher started speaking Russian. None of what he said made sense. When I asked him to explain it, he just talking Russian. At a certain point, I said, "Peace out!" and dropped the class.
I had this exact experience many times, particularly in BC Calculus, but all my friends were doing it so peer pressure made me keep trying. I got it all eventually.
Maybe that's part of the problem. None of my girlfriends were in my math class. In fact, I was one of only two girls in the class of 20+ students. :hmm:
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:34:03 PM
Maybe that's part of the problem. None of my girlfriends were in my math class. In fact, I was one of only two girls in the class of 20+ students. :hmm:
Did any of the girls you knew say why they didn't take that class?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2012, 04:35:25 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:34:03 PM
Maybe that's part of the problem. None of my girlfriends were in my math class. In fact, I was one of only two girls in the class of 20+ students. :hmm:
Did any of the girls you knew say why they didn't take that class?
I don't remember. I would guess it was because none of them expected to need them. At the time, you only needed to complete two years of high school math to get into college. Past Geometry, it was only useful if you wanted to go into Engineering or Science. Why bother unless that was your career goal?
Of course, most of the girls that I knew who were going to college were going to be teachers, nurses, or businesswomen. There were the few exceptions, but not many. In general, most weren't going to college at all. They took a few business classes (keyboarding, basic computing, and transcription) and got a job at an insurance company in town.
This was in the 1980s. When I said that I wanted to be a lawyer in 8th grade, I was told that that was a lofty goal for such a little girl. :glare:
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:39:17 PM
This was in the 1980s. When I said that I wanted to be a lawyer in 8th grade, I was told that that was a lofty goal for such a little girl. :glare:
So you were saved from being a lawyer? Sometimes even bigoted prejudice can have a silver lining.
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2012, 04:42:15 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 04:39:17 PM
This was in the 1980s. When I said that I wanted to be a lawyer in 8th grade, I was told that that was a lofty goal for such a little girl. :glare:
So you were saved from being a lawyer? Sometimes even bigoted prejudice can have a silver lining.
Agreed. :)
An interesting thing that jumped out at me from this (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript) transcript of an interview. The person being interviewed is a woman who became a man and had big testosterone injections. The whole piece is interesting, actually.
Quote
Griffin Hansbury
Something that happened after I started taking testosterone, I became interested in science. I was never interested in science before.
Alex Blumberg
No way. Come on. Are you serious?
Griffin Hansbury
I'm serious. I'm serious.
Alex Blumberg
You're just setting us back a hundred years, sir.
Griffin Hansbury
I know I am. I know. Again, and I have to have this caveat in here, I cannot say it was the testosterone. All I can say is that this interest happened after T. There's BT and AT, and this was definitely After T. And I became interested in science. I found myself understanding physics in a way I never had before.
One of the funniest things is her description of her new sex drive when she got the T. She said she finally understood adolescent boys. :P
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
I had this exact experience many times, particularly in BC Calculus, but all my friends were doing it so peer pressure made me keep trying. I got it all eventually.
Really, there were like 3 of us eligible to take it in my senior class(I blew it off, much like the rest of my senior year). And that was because we'd taken dual enrollment math classes at the local junior college. Algebra->Geometry->Algebra 2-> Trig/Precal-> Calculus AB, algebra given 8th grade at earliest.
Math was always may favourite subject as a kid, but then I found history and literature way more interesting suddenly around grade 9.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 01, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
I didn't like math at all. I still excelled at it. It's what men do.
I was always reading in math class, or writing short stories instead of working on problems. That sorta put a crimp in my mathematical development.
Same here. Yet when I took the standardized tests for math I got the top 1% despite being in a remedial math class at one time. Being smarter then most Missourians is a uneasy feeling. It's like being the king of the retards.
Oh, I always tested in the 99% for math and science, too. But that's because standardized tests rarely went beyond Geometry. Even my ACT score was 25 in math.
Maybe I'm not as ignorant at math as I think I am. I just never felt like I really got it.
25 on the ACT is only around 80th percentile.
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 09:40:18 PM
Oh, I always tested in the 99% for math and science, too. But that's because standardized tests rarely went beyond Geometry.
No kidding. Showing up for standardized tests put you in the 99% if you've got half a brain.
God knows my Mom waved my Iowa results at me, screaming "If you can do this then why can't you do your homework!?!?" enough times, usually right before she started waving the yardstick.
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 09:40:18 PM
Maybe I'm not as ignorant at math as I think I am. I just never felt like I really got it.
I agree, you're probably not. My guess is these things usually come down to interest level and communication and not aptitude.
Raz--I also think that interest plays a big part in how "smart" people are too. People who exercise their brains in their recreation activities can boost their own IQ. People whose interests lend themselves to that will be "smarter". It's why you see IQ scores go down or up over a person's lifetime. Genetics matter, of course, but if you spend all your time exercising one muscle, you're going to have that one be stronger than everyone else's who does not do that. That's IMO of course.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 01, 2012, 09:54:56 PM
but if you spend all your time exercising one muscle, you're going to have that one be stronger than everyone else's who does not do that.
That would explain my monstrous penis NYUK NYUK NYUK
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2012, 09:51:28 PM
No kidding. Showing up for standardized tests put you in the 99% if you've got half a brain.
God knows my Mom waved my Iowa results at me, screaming "If you can do this then why can't you do your homework!?!?" enough times, usually right before she started waving the yardstick.
Oh dear god. I'm Seedy's mom. :blink:
Quote from: merithyn on November 01, 2012, 10:21:17 PM
Oh dear god. I'm Seedy's mom. :blink:
It doesn't get any better.
IM NOT GOING BACK TO SCHOOL I WANNA BE A COP
:bleeding:
I actually run a temperature when I'm doing lots of maths-heavy thinking.
I haven't done heavy thinking in years.
Maths was boring until I got to uni where my teachers explained it to me.
Quote from: Vricklund on November 02, 2012, 06:32:38 AM
Maths was boring until I got to uni where my teachers explained it to me.
That is probably the main problem. Get a good teacher and maths becomes fun.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 02, 2012, 10:47:32 AM
Quote from: Vricklund on November 02, 2012, 06:32:38 AM
Maths was boring until I got to uni where my teachers explained it to me.
That is probably the main problem. Get a good teacher and maths becomes fun.
Nah.
Quote from: The Brain on November 02, 2012, 10:54:02 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 02, 2012, 10:47:32 AM
Quote from: Vricklund on November 02, 2012, 06:32:38 AM
Maths was boring until I got to uni where my teachers explained it to me.
That is probably the main problem. Get a good teacher and maths becomes fun.
Nah.
Yeah, but you think math is as fun as a field full of sheep.
Quote from: Brazen on November 02, 2012, 05:51:19 AM
I actually run a temperature when I'm doing lots of maths-heavy thinking.
Wow. So you're burning calories.
DO MATH LOSE WEIGHT!!
I could market this. :P