I just think it's important that we note that yesterday was the anniversary of the last dreadnought gun duel. They finally got their fleet battle, and they fell victim to the crossing of the T.
Poor Japanese.
Every day is Swordfish Day.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:41:55 AM
Every day is Swordfish Day.
That's not even a little bit true.
Here, have a ring bayonet.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Here, have a ring bayonet.
Hopefully President Romney will downsize your citizenship. That would create some shareholder value.
I'm white. My citizenship is enshrined.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 11:37:45 AM
I'm white. My citizenship is enshrined.
That's what you said about your job, too.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb5%2FFuso_Trial_Heading_Left.jpg%2F300px-Fuso_Trial_Heading_Left.jpg&hash=a2a9dca8b9de5d09d57d6215ab004e0e80043869)
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 11:39:40 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 11:37:45 AM
I'm white. My citizenship is enshrined.
That's what you said about your job, too.
No, I didn't. Nobody's job is safe in America, unless it's at the DMV.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aircraft-list.com%2Fkeywords%2FFairey_Swordfish%2FFairey_Swordfish_43.jpg&hash=2a6c040f275c65adf7f5d8f6ddc0ef6b22adfe06)
(https://lh3.ggpht.com/_1ByBUxFWGqI/TI5y7exSlII/AAAAAAAAAHw/KacyNtzz1Wg/s1600/taranto1.jpg)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zgapa.pl%2Fzgapedia%2Fdata_pictures%2F_uploads_wiki%2Fh%2FHohenfriedeberg.Attack.of.Prussian.Infantry.1745.jpg&hash=547daaabdcc1d8f3ac3cde5ef9bc106a1b9d1afe)
Those are Italian dreadnoughts. That's like arguing that the US is less advanced than Saudi Arabia based on Mississippi.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 11:54:53 AM
Those are Italian dreadnoughts. That's like arguing that the US is less advanced than Saudi Arabia based on Mississippi.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhotelshawaii.travel%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc0%2FJapanese_attack_Pearl_Harbour%2C_Dec.7%2C_1941.jpg&hash=e500ccf9948bfe979c74bde6bf85671c2fb2512e)
Another attack at anchor. The aircraft seems to be only a useful weapon against a warship that isn't underway, or perhaps if you have massive numbers of aircraft. Either way, the dreadnought is probably a more efficient use of materiel.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 12:36:54 PM
Another attack at anchor. The aircraft seems to be only a useful weapon against a warship that isn't underway, or perhaps if you have massive numbers of aircraft. Either way, the dreadnought is probably a more efficient use of materiel.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F0%2F08%2FBattleship_Bismarck_burning_and_sinking_1941.jpg&hash=9b9ef5827bb0e29c3fc174d0e14d2f9422be84aa)
Destroyed by dreadnoughts. Sunk by torpedoes fired from a treaty cruiser.
USS Arizona 30,000 tons.
Nakajima Kate 2,5 tons.
One wonders if the Arizona is worth 1,200 torpedo bombers?
Quote from: Viking on October 26, 2012, 12:54:56 PM
USS Arizona 30,000 tons.
Nakajima Kate 2,5 tons.
One wonders if the Arizona is worth 1,200 torpedo bombers?
Now take the carriers into account.
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Sunk by air attack, in open water:
HMS Repulse, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 436 crew.
HMS Prince of Wales, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 327 crew.
Italian battleship Roma, sunk by Luftwaffe Fritz-X glider bombs on September 9, 1943 with loss of 1,353 crew.
INS Hiei, sunk by US Navy and USAF aircraft off of Guadalcanal, November 13, 1942 with loss of 188 crew.
INS Musashi, sunk by US Navy aircraft during the Battle of Leyte Gulf on October 24, 1944 with loss of over 1,000 crew.
INS Yamato, sunk by US air attacks off of Okinawa April 7, 1945 with loss of 2,475 men.
Greek battleship Kilkis, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
Greek battleship Limnos, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
HNLMS De Zeven Provincien was sunk by Japanese bombers off of Surabaya, February 18, 1942. Raised by the Japanese and used as a floating battery, then sunk by allied bombers in 1943.
Quote from: Viking on October 26, 2012, 01:04:54 PM
HNLMS De Zeven Provincien was sunk by Japanese bombers off of Surabaya, February 18, 1942. Raised by the Japanese and used as a floating battery, then sunk by allied bombers in 1943.
That just sounds so...violating.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
A superior one.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
Islam.
Quote from: Viking on October 26, 2012, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Sunk by air attack, in open water:
HMS Repulse, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 436 crew.
HMS Prince of Wales, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 327 crew.
Italian battleship Roma, sunk by Luftwaffe Fritz-X glider bombs on September 9, 1943 with loss of 1,353 crew.
INS Hiei, sunk by US Navy and USAF aircraft off of Guadalcanal, November 13, 1942 with loss of 188 crew.
INS Musashi, sunk by US Navy aircraft during the Battle of Leyte Gulf on October 24, 1944 with loss of over 1,000 crew.
INS Yamato, sunk by US air attacks off of Okinawa April 7, 1945 with loss of 2,475 men.
Greek battleship Kilkis, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
Greek battleship Limnos, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
HNLMS De Zeven Provincien was sunk by Japanese bombers off of Surabaya, February 18, 1942. Raised by the Japanese and used as a floating battery, then sunk by allied bombers in 1943.
Repulse, the Greeks and De Zeven Provincien were not dreadnought battleships. Yamato, Musashi and Prince of Wales were assaulted by overwhelming numbers with minimal support. Roma was Italian and in poor condition due to the surrender and due to being Italian. Hiei was a slowly steaming target due to the crippling damage it had taken in a gunfight, and even then it took continuous air attacks all day to sink her.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
A superior one.
Stricken as unresponsive.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:24:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
A superior one.
Stricken as unresponsive.
I thought we opted for non-responsive.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
Islam.
Not a weapons system.
Quote from: garbon on October 26, 2012, 01:25:38 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:24:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
A superior one.
Stricken as unresponsive.
I thought we opted for non-responsive.
Probably a better wording in this situation, yes.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:26:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
Islam.
Not a weapons system.
The Sword of the Prophet most certainly is, infidel.
IT IS WORTH EVERYTHING IT IS WORTH NOTHING
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 01:28:39 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:26:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
Islam.
Not a weapons system.
The Sword of the Prophet most certainly is, infidel.
IT IS WORTH EVERYTHING IT IS WORTH NOTHING
Forwarded to Homeland Security.
Terror threat level: Increased to Purple.
It'll get lost in the fusion center, buried under reports on bikers.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:24:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:15:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Overwhelming attack from a numerically superior foe in an attack that was designed to fail? What weapons system in the world could survive in those circumstances?
A superior one.
Stricken as unresponsive.
Tell me then, how many aircraft carriers did the planes come from that sank the Yamato?
Quote from: Viking on October 26, 2012, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Sunk by air attack, in open water:
HMS Repulse, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 436 crew.
HMS Prince of Wales, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 327 crew.
Italian battleship Roma, sunk by Luftwaffe Fritz-X glider bombs on September 9, 1943 with loss of 1,353 crew.
INS Hiei, sunk by US Navy and USAF aircraft off of Guadalcanal, November 13, 1942 with loss of 188 crew.
INS Musashi, sunk by US Navy aircraft during the Battle of Leyte Gulf on October 24, 1944 with loss of over 1,000 crew.
INS Yamato, sunk by US air attacks off of Okinawa April 7, 1945 with loss of 2,475 men.
Greek battleship Kilkis, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
Greek battleship Limnos, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
HNLMS De Zeven Provincien was sunk by Japanese bombers off of Surabaya, February 18, 1942. Raised by the Japanese and used as a floating battery, then sunk by allied bombers in 1943.
You list is rather diminished by the last three, two pre-dreadnought and a coastal defence ship; a total of 8-12in and 2-11in guns don't quite make a whole single dreadnought.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 26, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Here, have a ring bayonet.
Tut tut. A modern invention. Will never replace the good old plug bayonet!
Wasn't the Bismarck also disabled by an air attack before it was scuttled? And Tirpitz and Gneisenau were also disabled by air attacks.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:38:13 PM
Tell me then, how many aircraft carriers did the planes come from that sank the Yamato?
Not near my books, but Wiki says 11.
Quote from: Zanza on October 26, 2012, 01:44:22 PM
Wasn't the Bismarck also disabled by an air attack before it was scuttled? And Tirpitz and Gneisenau were also disabled by air attacks.
Bismarck had its steering gear damaged by air attack, which allowed the RN to catch it and destroy it (along with a nagging wound delivered by the Prince of Wales). Tirpitz and Gneisenau were bombed at anchor by the RAF.
Isn't the real problem of Dreadnoughts that they became too complex and difficult to build compared to carriers and planes? They were still useful at the end of the war, but too expensive and time consuming to build.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:38:13 PM
Tell me then, how many aircraft carriers did the planes come from that sank the Yamato?
Not near my books, but Wiki says 11.
I'm seeing 8 some of which are escort carriers Against several Japanese ships. It doesn't seem overwhelming odds unless carriers completely outclass battleships.
Taffy 3 laughs at your toy boats.
Quote from: Threviel on October 26, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
Isn't the real problem of Dreadnoughts that they became too complex and difficult to build compared to carriers and planes? They were still useful at the end of the war, but too expensive and time consuming to build.
I would say that building a fleet carrier and a dreadnought were more or less equivalent. Obviously you could build a plane or even a whole airgroup in a fraction of the time that it took to build a dreadnought, but the big carriers took a while, and unless you were doing a bad job of it were rather complex in their arrangements. I suppose that you didn't have to worry about thick armour plates or large, unique naval guns when building a carrier.
Building time was not the reason that carriers replaced dreadnoughts.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:38:13 PM
Tell me then, how many aircraft carriers did the planes come from that sank the Yamato?
Not near my books, but Wiki says 11.
I'm seeing 8 some of which are escort carriers Against several Japanese ships. It doesn't seem overwhelming odds unless carriers completely outclass battleships.
Yamato was effectively alone. IJN destroyers were pretty much useless against air attack and the Agano-class light cruisers weren't much better. Read up on the Japanese 25-mm AA mount.
Either way, 8 against 1 and a little bit is massively outnumbered.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 26, 2012, 02:40:01 PM
Taffy 3 laughs at your toy boats.
No they don't. Taffy 3 is scrap metal, whereas there are still dreadnoughts afloat.
The Samuel B Roberts's name will echo through history. The shitstains in Kurita's force? Forgotten.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 03:05:19 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 01:38:13 PM
Tell me then, how many aircraft carriers did the planes come from that sank the Yamato?
Not near my books, but Wiki says 11.
I'm seeing 8 some of which are escort carriers Against several Japanese ships. It doesn't seem overwhelming odds unless carriers completely outclass battleships.
Yamato was effectively alone. IJN destroyers were pretty much useless against air attack and the Agano-class light cruisers weren't much better. Read up on the Japanese 25-mm AA mount.
Either way, 8 against 1 and a little bit is massively outnumbered.
So how many Yamatos would be required to win the day?
Hard to say. Then again, the Yamato might not be the best example, what with its defective armour, low-grade fire control and substandard AA weapons. Damage control wasn't that great either.
Also it was hampered by it's inability to launch large numbers of airplanes from it's deck.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 03:21:51 PM
Also it was hampered by it's inability to launch large numbers of airplanes from it's deck.
How would that have helped?
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 03:21:51 PM
Also it was hampered by it's inability to launch large numbers of airplanes from it's deck.
How would that have helped?
They could have shot down the waves of airplanes that were attacking it.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 03:25:48 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 03:21:51 PM
Also it was hampered by it's inability to launch large numbers of airplanes from it's deck.
How would that have helped?
They could have shot down the waves of airplanes that were attacking it.
No they couldn't have. The Japanese pilot corps that had been so much better than the USN equivalent had been decimated by then, and the IJN wasn't built to replace those pilots quickly. Only the best of the best got to be pilots in the IJN, and so by the time they got around to the end of the war, they were putting poorly-trained and inexperienced kids in the air against the USN's veterans.
No, if you wanted to shoot down aircraft, you were better off with a proper AA suite and fire control.
Quote from: mongers on October 26, 2012, 01:38:22 PM
Quote from: Viking on October 26, 2012, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
I think a better argument would be the Yamato.
Sunk by air attack, in open water:
HMS Repulse, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 436 crew.
HMS Prince of Wales, sunk by Japanese aircraft off Malaya, December 10 1941 with loss of 327 crew.
Italian battleship Roma, sunk by Luftwaffe Fritz-X glider bombs on September 9, 1943 with loss of 1,353 crew.
INS Hiei, sunk by US Navy and USAF aircraft off of Guadalcanal, November 13, 1942 with loss of 188 crew.
INS Musashi, sunk by US Navy aircraft during the Battle of Leyte Gulf on October 24, 1944 with loss of over 1,000 crew.
INS Yamato, sunk by US air attacks off of Okinawa April 7, 1945 with loss of 2,475 men.
Greek battleship Kilkis, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
Greek battleship Limnos, sunk by Germany Ju-87 bombers in the Salamis Channel on April 23, 1941.
HNLMS De Zeven Provincien was sunk by Japanese bombers off of Surabaya, February 18, 1942. Raised by the Japanese and used as a floating battery, then sunk by allied bombers in 1943.
You list is rather diminished by the last three, two pre-dreadnought and a coastal defence ship; a total of 8-12in and 2-11in guns don't quite make a whole single dreadnought.
Limnos and Kilkis were barely even pre-dreadnoughts by that point. One was a training ship, the other was essentially an accomodations hulk (forget which is which).
I'm sure that the Germans tried to claim that they'd sunk battleships though. That would, in Goering's mind, salve the pride of his service being outfought at every turn by the RN.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 10:41:11 AM
I just think it's important that we note that yesterday was the anniversary of the last dreadnought gun duel. They finally got their fleet battle, and they fell victim to the crossing of the T.
Poor Japanese.
Who cares.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 26, 2012, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 10:41:11 AM
I just think it's important that we note that yesterday was the anniversary of the last dreadnought gun duel. They finally got their fleet battle, and they fell victim to the crossing of the T.
Poor Japanese.
Who cares.
I do.
Quote from: 11B4V on October 26, 2012, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 10:41:11 AM
I just think it's important that we note that yesterday was the anniversary of the last dreadnought gun duel. They finally got their fleet battle, and they fell victim to the crossing of the T.
Poor Japanese.
Who cares.
Raciss
Quote from: mongers on October 26, 2012, 01:38:22 PM
You list is rather diminished by the last three, two pre-dreadnought and a coastal defence ship; a total of 8-12in and 2-11in guns don't quite make a whole single dreadnought.
Where's the list of carriers sunk by dreadnoughts?
Quote from: Kleves on October 26, 2012, 07:58:34 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 26, 2012, 01:38:22 PM
You list is rather diminished by the last three, two pre-dreadnought and a coastal defence ship; a total of 8-12in and 2-11in guns don't quite make a whole single dreadnought.
Where's the list of carriers sunk by dreadnoughts?
There are only two: Gambier Bay and Glorious.
Fighting carriers isn't a dreadnought's job. They are weapons of heirarchical warfare, and therefore fighting carriers was beneath them.
Mind you, if you want to only include dreadnoughts sunk by carrier aircraft, then the list of battleships sunk drops to two: Yamato and Musashi.
Quote from: Neil on October 26, 2012, 08:03:40 PM
Quote from: Kleves on October 26, 2012, 07:58:34 PM
Quote from: mongers on October 26, 2012, 01:38:22 PM
You list is rather diminished by the last three, two pre-dreadnought and a coastal defence ship; a total of 8-12in and 2-11in guns don't quite make a whole single dreadnought.
Where's the list of carriers sunk by dreadnoughts?
There are only two: Gambier Bay and Glorious.
Fighting carriers isn't a dreadnought's job. They are weapons of heirarchical warfare, and therefore fighting carriers was beneath them.
in this case the dreadnoughts are below the carriers, many fathoms below the carriers. :lmfao:
Anybody mention Incan torpedo boats yes?
Quote from: Viking on October 26, 2012, 08:09:51 PM
in this case the dreadnoughts are below the carriers, many fathoms below the carriers. :lmfao:
Carriers sunk two draednoughts, and dreadnoughts sunk two carriers. They seem equally effective. Mind you, both submarines and carriers killed more carriers than dreadnoughts did.
You never commented on my Bismarck at Jutland thread Neil. :(
Quote from: jimmy olsen on October 27, 2012, 01:56:31 AM
You never commented on my Bismarck at Jutland thread Neil. :(
:huh: Yes I did.