I've only picked up bits and pieces. In particular I'm interested to know how much money a person can get from the state when they're not working, and what, if anything, the recipient needs to do.
This varies greatly from country to country, and has changed over time as well. It also depends on the reasons for not working.
Quote from: Jacob on October 10, 2012, 10:12:11 PM
It also depends on the reasons for not working.
Say, for example, it's because one is unemployed.
Get a real job.
Okay, for the UK/England at the minute it's Jobseeker's Allowance. To claim contribution based Jobseeker's Allowance you have to be able to begin work immediately and actively taking steps to look for work. You need to go into the Job Centre every two weeks, with your Jobseeker's Agreement which will set out specific 'reasonable' steps you need to be fulfilling and prove that you're meeting it - so for example demonstrate that you're applying for work. You're not allowed to be in work, or working more than 16 hours a week any income from part-time work or an occupational pension you have will be taken off your JSA. At the minute it's £56.25 a week for under 25s and £71 for over 25s.
With your Jobseeker's Agreement with the Job Centre they can give you 'directions' which can be things you have to do to improve your chances of finding work - for example they can tell you to register with x number of agencies, apply for x number of jobs a week. If you fail to do it and don't have a good reason then you can lose your JSA for one or two weeks, if you then don't do it again you can lose the benefit for four weeks.
If you were fired for misconduct or left voluntarily your benefit can be reduced, or you can lose the right to it. Similarly if you refuse to take a job you've been offered, or do a compulsory training or employment program you can lose your right to the benefit.
In addition to that there's income support which helps low-income people (but is means tested - if you've more than £16 000 in capital you don't get it and it's reduced incrementally from £6 000). That helps cover, for example, council tax or housing costs (up to a set limit). If you lose your JSA, generally you lose income support.
That's my understanding at least. There's a few other things available too. There's a lower 'hardship payment' which is far more difficult to get and I don't really understand it. There's also some other benefits available if you're the sole carer of a child under 16, or the carer of a dependent and there's other benefits for people who are either disabled and can't work, or disabled and will need extra help/support to work.
Any questions? :)
Edit: And it's not a real benefit but when I claimed JSA I was told by the Job Centre that each claimant has up to £200 available at the discretion of the Job Centre. It's normally not given (and very rarely will the whole £200 be given) but can be in certain circumstances - to pay for childcare during an interview, or for a cheap suit for an interview. Any use of that money needs to be verified with receipts etc.
Edit: Also, I think after three months the meetings become weekly and after six months you can lose them altogether.
Quote from: Jaron on October 10, 2012, 10:32:04 PM
Get a real job.
In Europe? Good luck. Not many of those to be had.
Sheilbh--that doesn't sound all that generous to me. 71 pounds a week...
I'm pretty sure the homeless in SF get a bigger check than that.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 10, 2012, 11:30:06 PM
Sheilbh--that doesn't sound all that generous to me. 71 pounds a week...
I'm pretty sure the homeless in SF get a bigger check than that.
Yeah Britain's system actually sounds more draconian than ours. I don't think Americans would tolerate having to work so hard for their welfare checks.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 10, 2012, 11:30:06 PM
Sheilbh--that doesn't sound all that generous to me. 71 pounds a week...
I'm pretty sure the homeless in SF get a bigger check than that.
No shit. That's sofa change.
How much is the income support.
BTW, exactly what if was looking for Shelf.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2012, 11:37:40 PM
How much is the income support.
I got the labelling wrong. Income support's a small addition for certain people.
By far the biggest benefit is Housing Benefit or Council Tax Benefit. The Council Tax Benefit is basically the (national) state paying the (local) property tax. Housing Benefit is subject to the same capital rules as income support and only includes rents - not bills or anything like that. It's not available above a certain income. It's changed since I used it (and though the JSA system was the same I think they're a bit more strict now - they used to turn a blind eye to graduates doing unpaid internships for example).
Housing benefit is calculated and paid locally by the local authority, it's the Local Housing Allowance. The LHA varies from council to council based on market rates. From my understanding the market rate is calculated on the cheapest 30% of properties for rent in that council area. I think they cap at 80% of the market rate (calculated from the cheapest 30%). There's also a national cap of £250 a week for shared accommodation or a 1 bed up to £400 a week for a 4 bed - but that would probably only matter for a couple of Boroughs in London.
If you're under 35 and have no children it's assumed you'll be in shared accommodation. If your situation's different it can cover up to a 4 bed property.
So in my local council, as someone under 35 with no dependent children I could get up to £86 a week for rent, when I lived in Bristol it would be up to £64 and where I'm from, in Liverpool, it would be £55. If you live with someone else who could be reasonably expected to contribute then your benefit will be reduced, even if they don't. Obviously it's not available if you're a student, living with your parents or family etc.
Generally it's paid direct to the landlord, but can be paid to you (in arrears) in some circumstances. Housing Benefit's also available for other very low-income people - some pensioners, disabled people who are unable to work etc. From what I remember they also review it fairly regularly (you have to go and see the council every couple of months) and if there's a change in circumstances they tend to be pretty quick at finding out and getting money back.
Edit: Should say that local government administers and pays housing benefit, but it comes from central government who set the caps and determine how to calculate LHA etc.
We had a not so fun debate a couple of month ago when someone trying to show how bad the poor people had it in Denmark found a young mother of three to showcase. Turned out though that she received about 15000kr ($2500-$3000) from the state monthly and was all things considered quite well off.
A shame she stole the focus, especially because her kids might actually have been poor with her wasting several thousands each month on cigarettes and candy for herself. :P
The British system is a huge mess and effectively is a two tier system. Sheilbh has described what happens to people who are generally in work and/or have savings. Having worked the past 24 years without taking a single day off, latterly paying taxes at the rate of £3,000 per month my wife is currently unemployed and is entitled to the princely sum of £71 per week. Moreover, if she doesn't find a job by Christmas then they can offer her any crappy job they feel like and stop her benefit if she refuses (which she would). Of course we have substantial financial resources and will not suffer, but the National Insurance part of the taxation system is a hollow joke to us.
However, if you get into having kids and single-parent land there can be quite a lot of money coming in. Take a look at the first person in this BBC piece :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19873832
She is getting £1990 per calendar month by my calculations. With the way the tax and benefit system works she would have to get one hell of a salary to get ahead...........about £50k I reckon, though even that is dubious with 4 kids to be looked after.
DON'T GET ME STARTED!
In Poland, the unemployment benefit is only awarded to people who worked for at least 365 days during the period of 18 months before the lost the job. Like in the UK, you are not eligible in some circumstances. The amount is very meagre - about $250 for the first three months, and then 2/3 of it for the remaining part during which you are eligible (which is either 6 or 12 months, including the original 3 months, depending on how the unemployment rate in the region where you live compares to the national average unemployment); the amount is subject to a multiplier that ranges from 8/10 to 12/10 depending on your total period of employment before.
Like in the UK, you lose your right to the benefit if you refuse to take job offered or fail to attend trainings etc.
As you can see, the American idea that Europe is this paradise for unemployed moochers is a myth.
Marginal tax rates for the poor, and not so poor, in the UK are very high due to the progressive removal of benefits as income rises. This paper has a nice little chart that shows the effect rather well :
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/client/downloads/CSJ%20Dynamic%20Benefits%20exec%20WEB%20NEW.pdf
Bear in mind that the average wage is £22k, I reckon that over half the population are in that high marginal rate trap and effectively work for peanuts. What stands out for me is not the large number of scroungers but the fact that, despite such poor returns, most people still work hard and do their best.
What we have is socialised healthcare, free access to education and a host of situational benefits for people with the income below certain level (whether you are unemployed or not) such as the disabled person carer benefit, parental benefit etc.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 11, 2012, 01:53:15 AM
Marginal tax rates for the poor, and not so poor, in the UK are very high due to the progressive removal of benefits as income rises. This paper has a nice little chart that shows the effect rather well :
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/client/downloads/CSJ%20Dynamic%20Benefits%20exec%20WEB%20NEW.pdf
Bear in mind that the average wage is £22k, I reckon that over half the population are in that high marginal rate trap and effectively work for peanuts. What stands out for me is not the large number of scroungers but the fact that, despite such poor returns, most people still work hard and do their best.
Yeah, that's a problem in Poland too, as the benefits are often a lump sum and not, e.g. an amount that brings your income up to a certain fixed threshold. As a result, if your income raises to the level where you lose a benefit, you may actually be getting less money per month.
Quote from: Martinus on October 11, 2012, 02:08:54 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 11, 2012, 01:53:15 AM
Marginal tax rates for the poor, and not so poor, in the UK are very high due to the progressive removal of benefits as income rises. This paper has a nice little chart that shows the effect rather well :
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/client/downloads/CSJ%20Dynamic%20Benefits%20exec%20WEB%20NEW.pdf
Bear in mind that the average wage is £22k, I reckon that over half the population are in that high marginal rate trap and effectively work for peanuts. What stands out for me is not the large number of scroungers but the fact that, despite such poor returns, most people still work hard and do their best.
Yeah, that's a problem in Poland too, as the benefits are often a lump sum and not, e.g. an amount that brings your income up to a certain fixed threshold. As a result, if your income raises to the level where you lose a benefit, you may actually be getting less money per month.
which of course means that the system is just one big fail, unless it's intention is to keep masses at a level poor enough to be dependent on the state.
This thread turned quick. Seems we're on about unemployment benefits, not the welfare state as a whole.
QuoteEdit: And it's not a real benefit but when I claimed JSA I was told by the Job Centre that each claimant has up to £200 available at the discretion of the Job Centre. It's normally not given (and very rarely will the whole £200 be given) but can be in certain circumstances - to pay for childcare during an interview, or for a cheap suit for an interview. Any use of that money needs to be verified with receipts etc.
Really? Shit...Those bastards were cheating me.
I heard there was money for suits going and money to fund travelling to interviews but when I asked about it they demanded all sorts of proof that I was absolutely flat broke. Which is just ridiculous. Punishes people for being financially sensible.
Overall the British system sucks. You get very little, they regularly blow large amounts of money on private firms which 'teach' useless courses (basically for 2 weeks you have to sit in a room and use the computers to spam your CV to at least 20 jobs or lose your benefit).
I remember I was able to get some work labouring with my dad's company. Only 2 days a week though....it turned out I was only £10 better off since they took away most of my benefit for doing that. Really not worth while.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2012, 11:37:40 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 10, 2012, 11:30:06 PM
Sheilbh--that doesn't sound all that generous to me. 71 pounds a week...
I'm pretty sure the homeless in SF get a bigger check than that.
No shit. That's sofa change.
How much is the income support.
BTW, exactly what if was looking for Shelf.
That's pretty close to what I get for disability.
I've never received unemployment benefits so I don't know much about that area. Much like previous examples you need to have worked and show your willingness to do so by showing up at interviews and such. What you get depends on your contributions while employed. After some time - again depending on your history - you lose the right to this aid (IIRC max was a couple years but got cut recently to 18 months).
There's another scheme that gives €400/month to families whose members make, on average, less than 75% of minimum wage (€481/month). This didn't exist before the crisis. I'm guessing this is largely aimed at preventing starvation and crime.
There are some fiscal benefits for disabled (increasing the untaxed portion of their income and decreasing payroll taxes for businesses that employ them).
The last socialist government enacted a law to help those who depend on others, but since there are no funds ...
We do get good quality healthcare, regardless of employment.
I got a total of £81 for four week's unemployment, which arrived after I secured a job, and no prospect of getting help to pay my mortgage. Surely it would save a fortune to help people stay in homes they own? I've no idea where the Daily Mail digs up these immigrants lording it up in six bedroom properties at the expense of the taxpayer.
The Government plans to introduce a new household income threshold of £60,000 above which social tenants (those in housing association or council properties) must pay full market rent. £60,000? Why aren't they buying a house?
From the Grauniad:
"Government research shows that as many as 6,000 social rented homes in England are lived in by people who earn a combined income of more than £100,000, including Bob Crow, leader of the RMT union. At the proposed £60,000 threshold, ministers estimate as many as 34,000 social rented homes in England alone would be affected."
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2012, 11:09:43 AM
I've never received unemployment benefits so I don't know much about that area. Much like previous examples you need to have worked and show your willingness to do so by showing up at interviews and such. What you get depends on your contributions while employed. After some time - again depending on your history - you lose the right to this aid (IIRC max was a couple years but got cut recently to 18 months).
It's like that, you need to have worked at least 12 months during the previous year and a half to qualify, and you'll get a fraction of what you made while you were employed, capped at around 1000 €/month. During the last few months the amount of money you receive will diminish gradually.
Theoretically they can force you to go to job interviews and training, but I've never had that experience, although it can happen.
How are you doing, by the way? Did you manage to find something close to home?
Quote from: Iormlund on October 11, 2012, 11:55:54 AM
How are you doing, by the way? Did you manage to find something close to home?
I'm freelancing now, if you know about anything let me know. :p
Quote from: Brazen on October 11, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
The Government plans to introduce a new household income threshold of £60,000 above which social tenants (those in housing association or council properties) must pay full market rent. £60,000? Why aren't they buying a house?
If you have a family of four, in London or the south-east, you have no chance of buying a semi-decent house on £60K. Good question why they don't utilise right to buy though.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 10, 2012, 09:27:50 PM
I've only picked up bits and pieces. In particular I'm interested to know how much money a person can get from the state when they're not working, and what, if anything, the recipient needs to do.
The day I learn the details about poors you can shoot me.
Germany distinguishes between welfare and social security.
Welfare: Everybody who doesn't have the necessary means is entitled to the former. The regular rate for an adult right now is 374 € per month for an adult single (less per person in bigger households) plus a housing allowance which is up to 378€ for a single adult and 705€ for a family of five in Berlin.
This can and will be cut for people in working age if they are not trying to get work.
Social security: This consists of mandatory insurance for all employed (not self-employed) persons and has five pillars (unemployment, health, long-term care, pension and accident insurance). It's about 20% of your gross payroll and the employer pays another 20% or so. This entitles you to e.g. unemployment money. You get that based on how long you paid it, but at most for 12 months. The amount is about 60% of your previous net income.
Quote from: The Larch on October 11, 2012, 12:08:35 PM
I'm freelancing now, if you know about anything let me know. :p
I don't even know what is exactly that you do. :blush:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 11, 2012, 01:53:15 AM
Marginal tax rates for the poor, and not so poor, in the UK are very high due to the progressive removal of benefits as income rises. This paper has a nice little chart that shows the effect rather well :
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/client/downloads/CSJ%20Dynamic%20Benefits%20exec%20WEB%20NEW.pdf
Bear in mind that the average wage is £22k, I reckon that over half the population are in that high marginal rate trap and effectively work for peanuts. What stands out for me is not the large number of scroungers but the fact that, despite such poor returns, most people still work hard and do their best.
Yeah, there are plenty of very marginalised people in this country, that seem to keep going despite what government does to 'reform' things.
As per your dear wife's temporary situation, it must feel somewhat demeaning to hear all this BS about scroungers, when the most common situation is hard working people finding themselves redundant/out of work, because we're in a recession and they're only 'claiming' on an 'insurance policy' they've been paying over the odds for, for years and the payout is a princely seventy quid a week. :hmm: