QuoteUbisoft CEO Yves Guillemot has told GamesIndustry International that the percentage of paying players is the same for free to play as it is for PC boxed product: around five to seven per cent.
Speaking to GamesIndustry International editor Matt Martin at Gamescom, Guillemot revealed that free to play has been an effective way for Ubisoft to market product to territories in which PC gaming had been so badly affected by piracy that profit was impossible.
"We want to develop the PC market quite a lot and F2P is really the way to do it," said the French CEO. "The advantage of F2P is that we can get revenue from countries where we couldn't previously - places where our products were played but not bought. Now with F2P we gain revenue, which helps brands last longer.
"It's a way to get closer to your customers, to make sure you have a revenue. On PC it's only around five to seven per cent of the players who pay for F2P, but normally on PC it's only about five to seven per cent who pay anyway, the rest is pirated. It's around a 93-95 per cent piracy rate, so it ends up at about the same percentage. The revenue we get from the people who play is more long term, so we can continue to bring content."
Some more in the article about why F2P is better for companies, but this number boggled my mind. Does this sound plausible?
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-08-22-guillemot-as-many-pc-players-pay-for-f2p-as-boxed-product
Who the hell knows.
Their methodology is to go on torrent freak & see how many times their games have been torrented & equal that to a lost sale.
Really?
Because it's much more accurate to compare the number of sales to the number of unique hits to the servers for updates and multiplayer matching.
I think it is also hard to evaluate even from a "feel" standpoint because they may be talking about other countries, like China.
How many people have paid for copies in China? I would be surprised if it was as high as 5%.
Quote from: Berkut on August 22, 2012, 11:14:18 AM
I think it is also hard to evaluate even from a "feel" standpoint because they may be talking about other countries, like China.
How many people have paid for copies in China? I would be surprised if it was as high as 5%.
I would think that Eastern Europeans and Russians, as well as Western European kiddie punks, would be ripping them off at an even greater rate.
Yeah, Berkut, my impression was that he was talking about specific markets where they have a hard time making a profit - I'm imagining China is probably one of them - when he talks about 95% of the games being copies.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2012, 11:27:33 AMI would think that Eastern Europeans and Russians, as well as Western European kiddie punks, would be ripping them off at an even greater rate.
You think West European kiddie punks pirate more than North American kiddie punks?
Quote from: Jacob on August 22, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
You think West European kiddie punks pirate more than North American kiddie punks?
Yes I do. I believe they're smarter.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2012, 11:27:33 AM
Quote from: Berkut on August 22, 2012, 11:14:18 AM
I think it is also hard to evaluate even from a "feel" standpoint because they may be talking about other countries, like China.
How many people have paid for copies in China? I would be surprised if it was as high as 5%.
I would think that Eastern Europeans and Russians, as well as Western European kiddie punks, would be ripping them off at an even greater rate.
:smoke: :pirate
Oh its just Ubisoft pulling numbers out of their ass again, nothing to see here. I suppose its hard to see your shitty DRM practises forcing people into piracy because its a much superior gaming experience. Havent played a Ubisoft game in ages but I wouldnt dream of purchasing one of their games even if I was interested in any of their titles.
Quote from: Jacob on August 22, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2012, 11:27:33 AMI would think that Eastern Europeans and Russians, as well as Western European kiddie punks, would be ripping them off at an even greater rate.
You think West European kiddie punks pirate more than North American kiddie punks?
For example, Austrian legislation doesn't allow copyright holders to ask for IP identification or protocols from ISPs - that's for criminal investigations only. Copyright violation in Austria is from what I've seen prosecuted only if it's on a large (i.e. more than a kid d/l'ing the latest Lady Gaga songs) scale or if you make money by selling bootleg copies (physically or electronically).
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2012, 11:31:59 AM
Quote from: Jacob on August 22, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
You think West European kiddie punks pirate more than North American kiddie punks?
Yes I do. I believe they're smarter.
:lol:
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 22, 2012, 10:53:25 AM
Who the hell knows.
Their methodology is to go on torrent freak & see how many times their games have been torrented & equal that to a lost sale.
if they're anything like EA, going to torrent freak is often the only way to play your legitamely bought game after a few years.
Quote from: Syt on August 22, 2012, 12:55:22 PM
Copyright violation in Austria is from what I've seen prosecuted only if it's on a large (i.e. more than a kid d/l'ing the latest Lady Gaga songs) scale or if you make money by selling bootleg copies (physically or electronically).
it's like that in all of the civilized world. It just hasn't reached the US, but it's still under debate if they are civilized or not :P
I've seen the figure of 90% thrown around a few times. The example I remember is World of Goo: http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 22, 2012, 11:31:59 AM
Quote from: Jacob on August 22, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
You think West European kiddie punks pirate more than North American kiddie punks?
Yes I do. I believe they're smarter.
:lol:
My friends think I'm nuts when I tell them I actually pay for the games I play. And we're not kids anymore.
Well, you aren't. If they take stuff without paying they really aren't adults.
Is small-scale pirating even prosecuted in America?
I suspect a lot of this is caused by the fact that most game developers still use a retarded sale model, the way music producers do. There is simply so much crap out there and while you can very well say that a good game will give you your $50 worth of entertainment, a shitty one won't give you even $5 of it - and since most reviewers are sucking at the industry's teat, previews and reviews are not really a good way to decide if a game is going to be crappy or not.
I don't pirate games because these days I usually play only one-two new titles every few months and I am not short on cash, but main game consuming demographics is the opposite on both counts.
If the industry moved to trial purchase model for example, where you can enjoy a full game for a limited time and then decide if you want to buy it, I suspect the instances of pirating would go down a lot - but then the industry would lose on shitty games too, as noone would be suckered into buying them, so they don't want to do it.
And before someone says "well, you can pirate the games to try them, and then buy the ones you like", well it's not that simple as pirating creates a vicious pattern for the user.
If I go and buy ten games at full price and 9 of them turn out shitty, I will feel cheated even if the 10th one is awesome. Sure, caveat emptor and all that, but from a moral standpoint, I see this as a swindle that is as morally reprehensible on the producer's part as pirating 10 games is on the user's part.
So after an experience like this, the user will start to pirate games. Which will create a pathological pattern of games being available for "free", so then he won't go back and purchase the one game he actually liked - because that's how human mind operates.
If, on the other hand, he could legally trial-test all 10 games for free (and play 9 of them for the same, short amount of time, it would normally take him to play the pirated copies before he realizes they are shitty and deletes them from his hard drive), this would in my opinion create a virtuous pattern where he would be willing to pay for the one game he liked - because there would be no impression of being swindled on the user's part so he would be willing not to swindle the provider.
Define played.
I'd imagine a hell of a lot of people who would never have bought the game anyway pirated it, played it a little, found it crap, and deleted it.
It always makes me cringe a little when people make the connection that something pirated means a lost sale.
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2012, 01:15:05 AM
If I go and buy ten games at full price and 9 of them turn out shitty, I will feel cheated even if the 10th one is awesome. Sure, caveat emptor and all that, but from a moral standpoint, I see this as a swindle that is as morally reprehensible on the producer's part as pirating 10 games is on the user's part.
So basically, what you are saying is that developers need to develop Martinus utility functions in order to determine which games you will not feel morally obligated to steal?
Quote from: Tyr on August 24, 2012, 07:59:57 AM
Define played.
I'd imagine a hell of a lot of people who would never have bought the game anyway pirated it, played it a little, found it crap, and deleted it.
It always makes me cringe a little when people make the connection that something pirated means a lost sale.
It always makes me cringe when people try to hand wave their criminal acts as benign.
Quote from: Tyr on August 24, 2012, 07:59:57 AM
Define played.
I'd imagine a hell of a lot of people who would never have bought the game anyway pirated it, played it a little, found it crap, and deleted it.
It always makes me cringe a little when people make the connection that something pirated means a lost sale.
You know what - when someone steals a package of meat off the shelf of the supermarket, the store doesn't consider it a "lost sale".
But they do fucking consider it theft.
Cant reason with them, BB. Thievery is in their nature.
Information wants to be free. IP is such a bullshit concept.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2012, 09:57:26 PM
Information wants to be free. IP is such a bullshit concept.
Don't be such a Chinese bitch boy.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2012, 09:57:26 PM
Information wants to be free. IP is such a bullshit concept.
Seems like a valid concept to me. It's a way people get paid for their work.
Quote from: Barrister on August 24, 2012, 04:29:52 PM
You know what - when someone steals a package of meat off the shelf of the supermarket, the store doesn't consider it a "lost sale".
But they do fucking consider it theft.
That's because they can't sell the meat package to anyone else.
While I agree IP must be protected -- hell my livelihood depends on it -- reaching the conclusion that a download means a lost sale is completely absurd.
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2012, 09:57:26 PM
Information wants to be free. IP is such a bullshit concept.
What is your main problem with patents?
Quote from: Warspite on August 24, 2012, 01:35:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2012, 01:15:05 AM
If I go and buy ten games at full price and 9 of them turn out shitty, I will feel cheated even if the 10th one is awesome. Sure, caveat emptor and all that, but from a moral standpoint, I see this as a swindle that is as morally reprehensible on the producer's part as pirating 10 games is on the user's part.
So basically, what you are saying is that developers need to develop Martinus utility functions in order to determine which games you will not feel morally obligated to steal?
Seriously, this is what you take from my two posts on this? You are a fucking cretin.
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2012, 01:07:50 AM
If the industry moved to trial purchase model for example, where you can enjoy a full game for a limited time and then decide if you want to buy it, I suspect the instances of pirating would go down a lot - but then the industry would lose on shitty games too, as noone would be suckered into buying them, so they don't want to do it.
I'm pretty sure if game companies did this people would go right on pirating. And there would still be people ginning up a rationale for why pirating is the right and noble thing to do.
Bottom line is people pirate because it's easy and the chances of getting punished are virtually nil.
The thing is, the industry is shifting toward trial purchase model. It's called "Free-to-play". Yi is right of course. People aren't pirating because they are unsatisfied with the service. For the most part, they pirate because it's easy and there little chance of getting caught.
Pirating games isn't that easy, or at least it wasn't easy back when I was pirating (more than a decade ago). It's a huge pain in the ass, and you're always opening yourself up for a virus infection or a trojan. It makes sense when you're a broke teen who has plenty of time and no discretionary income, but it's just too much hassle otherwise.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 26, 2012, 02:34:42 PMI'm pretty sure if game companies did this people would go right on pirating. And there would still be people ginning up a rationale for why pirating is the right and noble thing to do.
Bottom line is people pirate because it's easy and the chances of getting punished are virtually nil.
Yeah, pretty much. People are really good at coming up with excuses for doing what's convenient, easy and cheap for them.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 24, 2012, 10:45:12 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2012, 09:57:26 PM
Information wants to be free. IP is such a bullshit concept.
Seems like a valid concept to me. It's a way people get paid for their work.
Only if you let people pay the price they think is justified. It's called free market.
Time lost due to pirating everything you want is worth some money, but not as much as companies charge for entertainment. Piracy is the answer to overpriced IP goods. The only way to charge accurately is when customers dictate the price. So a teenager gives you 1$ and Martinus 50$, if you charge 50$ you only get Martinuses to pay you, piracy or not. If you won't get profit in such environment, you're not good enough and should change your job. Period.
Sales are excellent example.
Quote from: szmik on August 27, 2012, 02:46:56 AM
Only if you let people pay the price they think is justified. It's called free market.
No it's not. In a free market no one is forced to sell anything.
Quote
It always makes me cringe when people try to hand wave their criminal acts as benign
Where the fuck did I say that?
If you would learn to actually read you'd see I was speaking about how companies exagerate their losses due to piracy, nothing at all on the rights and wrongs of it.
Quote from: Barrister on August 24, 2012, 04:29:52 PM
You know what - when someone steals a package of meat off the shelf of the supermarket, the store doesn't consider it a "lost sale".
But they do fucking consider it theft.
Because it is. They had something, they no longer have it, someone else does.
Pirating software is still illegal but analogising it directly to physical theft doesn't work.
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2012, 07:13:59 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 24, 2012, 01:35:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2012, 01:15:05 AM
If I go and buy ten games at full price and 9 of them turn out shitty, I will feel cheated even if the 10th one is awesome. Sure, caveat emptor and all that, but from a moral standpoint, I see this as a swindle that is as morally reprehensible on the producer's part as pirating 10 games is on the user's part.
So basically, what you are saying is that developers need to develop Martinus utility functions in order to determine which games you will not feel morally obligated to steal?
Seriously, this is what you take from my two posts on this? You are a fucking cretin.
Producing games that, according to
you, are not very good, is not at all morally on par with stealing. If nothing else,
your opinion of the game does not imply any sort of immoral behaviour on the part of the publisher at all.
The correct, morally sound course of action if you are so risk averse is to not buy the game, or perhaps use this thing called the "Internet" where one can find a whole swath of legitimate user opinion.
I agree with Squeeze. Not every case of pirating is a lost sale. Some are, some aren't.
Quote from: Tyr on August 27, 2012, 04:36:10 AM
Quote
It always makes me cringe when people try to hand wave their criminal acts as benign
Where the fuck did I say that?
If you would learn to actually read you'd see I was speaking about how companies exagerate their losses due to piracy, nothing at all on the rights and wrongs of it.
It sounded like a justification. Okay, what evidence do you have of this?
Quote from: Warspite on August 27, 2012, 05:34:00 AM
Quote from: Martinus on August 25, 2012, 07:13:59 AM
Quote from: Warspite on August 24, 2012, 01:35:33 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2012, 01:15:05 AM
If I go and buy ten games at full price and 9 of them turn out shitty, I will feel cheated even if the 10th one is awesome. Sure, caveat emptor and all that, but from a moral standpoint, I see this as a swindle that is as morally reprehensible on the producer's part as pirating 10 games is on the user's part.
So basically, what you are saying is that developers need to develop Martinus utility functions in order to determine which games you will not feel morally obligated to steal?
Seriously, this is what you take from my two posts on this? You are a fucking cretin.
Producing games that, according to you, are not very good, is not at all morally on par with stealing. If nothing else, your opinion of the game does not imply any sort of immoral behaviour on the part of the publisher at all.
The correct, morally sound course of action if you are so risk averse is to not buy the game, or perhaps use this thing called the "Internet" where one can find a whole swath of legitimate user opinion.
I repeat what I said. You are a goddamn cretin.
Please stop throwing around third world insults. Iodine deficiency has been eradicated a long time ago in the industrialized world.
Quote from: szmik on August 27, 2012, 02:46:56 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 24, 2012, 10:45:12 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on August 24, 2012, 09:57:26 PM
Information wants to be free. IP is such a bullshit concept.
Seems like a valid concept to me. It's a way people get paid for their work.
Only if you let people pay the price they think is justified. It's called free market.
Time lost due to pirating everything you want is worth some money, but not as much as companies charge for entertainment. Piracy is the answer to overpriced IP goods. The only way to charge accurately is when customers dictate the price. So a teenager gives you 1$ and Martinus 50$, if you charge 50$ you only get Martinuses to pay you, piracy or not. If you won't get profit in such environment, you're not good enough and should change your job. Period.
Sales are excellent example.
:wacko: Sometimes the Polish jokes just tell themselves.
Yeah, that is kinda sad.
Quote from: Martinus on August 27, 2012, 06:32:18 AM
I repeat what I said. You are a goddamn cretin.
Take it elsewhere.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 27, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: Tyr on August 27, 2012, 04:36:10 AM
Quote
It always makes me cringe when people try to hand wave their criminal acts as benign
Where the fuck did I say that?
If you would learn to actually read you'd see I was speaking about how companies exagerate their losses due to piracy, nothing at all on the rights and wrongs of it.
It sounded like a justification. Okay, what evidence do you have of this?
Nothing really, but I'm not a multi-billion pound industry making a claim of correlation.
It just makes sense. Downloading a game for free is a lot easier done and a hell of a lot cheaper than having to buy a game, it stands to reason that people who pirate will download a lot more games than they would if they had to think carefully and pay for each one.
I don't think its too controversial to say pirate games=you buy less games, but no way is it a 1:1 relation of games pirated:games not bought.
I don't think anyone was making the 1:1 claim. However, it could be said each pirated game represents a fraction of a lost sale. What fraction, nobody can tell, but does represent some loss for the seller.
Quote from: Martinus on August 24, 2012, 01:07:50 AM
and since most reviewers are sucking at the industry's teat, previews and reviews are not really a good way to decide if a game is going to be crappy or not.
This claim is ridiculous given that with the internet, we can now get reviews from all sorts of people - many of whom are not even professional reviewers. It is certainly easy enough to find reviews of games that are honest.
Quote from: Razgovory on August 27, 2012, 10:37:06 AM
I don't think anyone was making the 1:1 claim. However, it could be said each pirated game represents a fraction of a lost sale. What fraction, nobody can tell, but does represent some loss for the seller.
I'm more familiar with the music industry's problems than the gaming industry's tbh and here I am speaking generally about all piracy. The film and music industry tend to be the most gung-ho about fighting piracy and...I have indeed seen many 1:1 claims of something pirated:something lost from them. I havent looked too into it with gaming but I wouldnt be surprised if the same claim was made.
Overall I think its fair to say piracy reduces sales but I wouldnt go far as every game pirated being a percentage of lost sales. Depends on the person. Some people will only pirate games, poor students and the like. Without piracy they may buy one or two games a year but with it they play dozens and buy now.
Other people meanwhile might only pirate one or two games when they cant wait for the release or want to test if it is good before buying it or what have you. In extreme cases here the games pirated:games sold can actually be higher than 1:1 in the more piracy means more sales direction- minecraft for instance did very well on the back of piracy.
Minecraft? I thought that was free for years. Not the same as piracy. If you don't consider it a fraction of a lost sale then how would you consider it? For every game pirated it could count as 1/N of a sale. 1 in N people would who pirated it would have bought it. We of course don't know what "N" is. It could be 10. It could be 100. I think looking at the console market is good to get a rough idea. Pirating a console game is much harder, and higher chance of getting caught and still penalty. It still happens, but probably not nearly the scale.
I honestly don't care how it "depends on the person". Sure everyone's reason for committing a crime is different, but that really doesn't matter, does it?
Minecraft isn't free no. There was a free version, purely creative mode, but it was rather terrible IMO, leftm e with no interest in buying the full game.
Myself and lots of people however pirated it to get a look at the proper game, survival mode, found it was actually rather good and then bought it.
The creators of Minecraft themselves have recognised that piracy greatly helped them. If there was no piracy then its sales would have been a lot less.
In this case of 1 in N, N is lses than 1.
This doesn't appy for every game of course. Far from it. Where games really suffer from piracy is in complete single player games with no online content. There is no harm to the player in playing a pirated version of those, you get the same experience as if you had bought it.....so why bother buying it? This has the unfortunate effect of pushing development away from such games and towards games with heavy online links. Which is sad as I prefer single player games.
Ah, so if there was no piracy you and few friends wouldn't have bought it. It seems to have helped them so much that they request that people who run sites giving out the pirated game cease to do so
http://www.webpronews.com/minecraft-creator-notch-challenged-to-quake-3-by-a-pirate-2012-04
But something like 1 in N isn't for each individual person, and I seriously doubt that piracy made the game sell better. The Free version was out there for years before the pay version, that was probably the biggest thing.
Not me and my friends no. It was a well reported phenomena. Just google minecraft piracy, there's lots of stuff out there on it.
First result is the creator telling people to pirate the game and then if they like it to buy it. He's known for being pretty outspoken in having a rational approach to piracy. He has said himself that piracy helped a lot in promoting the game in the early days.
Before anyone leaps to a strawman this isn't to say piracy helps every game, but for games following the minecraft model of a small indie studio steadily developing a multiplayer heavy game and releasing new versions all the time it works very well.
Quote from: Tyr on August 27, 2012, 04:36:10 AM
Because it is. They had something, they no longer have it, someone else does.
Pirating software is still illegal but analogising it directly to physical theft doesn't work.
That's a good point. Honestly, as far as the effect on supply and demand, I consider it closer to counterfeiting: the merchant is no less able to provide the item, but their control over the intellectual property is weakened with each illegitimate transaction, and recipients of the "counterfeit" settle for a lesser good (dangerous patches, lack of network connectivity, potential loss of all official customer support for that item, etc).
Quote from: Tyr on August 27, 2012, 10:20:03 PM
Not me and my friends no. It was a well reported phenomena. Just google minecraft piracy, there's lots of stuff out there on it.
First result is the creator telling people to pirate the game and then if they like it to buy it. He's known for being pretty outspoken in having a rational approach to piracy. He has said himself that piracy helped a lot in promoting the game in the early days.
Before anyone leaps to a strawman this isn't to say piracy helps every game, but for games following the minecraft model of a small indie studio steadily developing a multiplayer heavy game and releasing new versions all the time it works very well.
Actually based on a search of a few minutes, I can't really find any articles talking demonstrating how piracy actually helps games (though I can find many comments about how it has driven indie developers into the ground) - but mainly just conjecture on how it could. Almost everything just seems to be the creator's spiel about how piracy is a great marketing tool.
I liked this article:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/221362/gdc_minecraft_designer_says_piracy_isnt_theft.html
QuoteI endorse information anarchy in principle. Who doesn't? But content like video games isn't self-perpetuating, appearing like apples or pears and dropping cyclically from trees. It certainly doesn't manifest spontaneously, or cost nothing to create, package, distribute, and maintain. There's no "net zero" about the content generation and acquisition process.
...
But it's verging on irresponsible to implicitly green-light the "whatever I want is mine" entitlement mentality. Where's something--anything--in Persson's comments about encouraging a cultural reevaluation of the entitlement complex itself?
I think sometimes piracy does result in accidental freemium successes, especially when a pirated game is not fully functional.