http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19076873
QuoteChina: The paradox of foreign education
There was a time when Chinese students who obtained higher education abroad were considered to be the most fortunate of their generation.
After graduating from elite universities in the US and Britain, they were virtually guaranteed the best career prospects upon their return.
Those students were colloquially referred to as sea turtles - returning home with the world on their backs.
But things are different now.
These very students are now referred to as seaweed - washed up on the shore, with little or no prospect of finding work once they return home.
So why are foreign education qualifications not valued as highly as they once were?
"The reason employers valued them in the past has probably changed," says the regional director of the specialist recruitment company Hays.
According to Simon Lance, the main turning point centres around speaking another language.
"Previously, studying abroad brought with it some very strong language skills," he says.
But Chinese universities have come a long way in the past decade in the teaching of languages, and the skills obtained abroad are therefore less crucial.
Some people question whether it now makes sense to seek education abroad.
"If the expectation is that the qualification itself will automatically guarantee a high-paying job, then the answer is no," says Mr Lance.
"But as part of a long-term career plan with a multinational company then it is a very good starting point," he says.
However, Mr Lance also suggests any graduate studying abroad should seek work experience overseas as well.
"That would give them a much better competitive advantage when they return to China as opposed to just having the qualification itself," he says.
Ivy Wang went to Loughborough University for a masters degree in media and cultural analysis.
"I wanted to see what was going on outside of China, to see more and learn about other cultures," she says. "And I also wanted to improve my English."
It cost her family about £30,000 ($47,000) to send her to the UK to finish her education.
When she returned to China, she sent out her CV, and managed to get 20 job interviews, mainly with travel companies and educational institutions.
There are jobs everywhere in China, she says, but the wages are "not satisfying".
She was offered a salary of between $500 and $1,000 per month and half of that would be spent on renting a single room.
"Chinese employers know exactly who they want - someone who will do as they are told but not for much money," Ms Wang says.
"I work for a Swiss company now.
"Working for a foreign company means I can explain what I have done and what I have achieved, whereas with a Chinese company I have to be really quiet.
"China wants to broaden its strategy and have people who speak English or have a foreign education background, but at the same time they really want to control those people easily," she says.
It will take Ms Wang a decade to pay back her debts, but she says her family wants her to have a happy life rather than a stressful one.
Changing structure
It has been suggested that employers might regard people educated abroad as having a feisty attitude - that they would not be the pliant employee they were seeking.
But Mr Lance at the Hays recruitment agency says the opposite would be true in some circumstances.
"It would suit the management style and culture of a multinational company very well," he says.
"Having independent thought or being a little bit feisty is probably quite valued by a lot of multinational employers."
But Mr Lance adds that local qualifications when applying for positions with local companies could well be more of an advantage.
China is adapting from the stack-them-high and sell-them-cheap culture into something more innovative and consumer driven.
"There is definitely a state of flux at the moment. The culture shift within employers and employees is quite difficult at the moment," Mr Lance says.
"A lot of companies realise they need candidates with international skills and international experience, but they have not yet adapted their culture to attract or retain those types of people," he says.
Some companies are managing the cultural adaptation better than others.
"There is a shift from a very hierarchical structure towards a more flexible Western structure, where the salary you are paid and the promotions you achieve and the progression you might expect in your career is driven more by ability or merit rather than the years served," Mr Lance says.
"In the banking and finance sectors there are many examples of Chinese owned and operated banks actively seeking out senior and mid-level managerial staff that have a Western approach.
"That is driven by banks which are starting to expand out of China and looking at international markets."
Seaweed gathering on the shores might not deter other students from studying abroad, although with Chinese universities rising to the challenge of doing business in the 21st Century, they might face less pressure to become turtles.
I think it is just a matter of demand saturation. It used to be quite tough to send kids abroad. Your family needs to be sufficiently rich and the kid needs to be sufficiently good. As more families become middle class and overseas universities make efforts to attract Chinese students, there are simply too many returning Chinese graduates.
It is also a bigger trend of questioning the value of a university degree in general, the same trends that western nations went though. The growth in the number of university graduates exceeds the growth in the number of office jobs. Graduates from average universities find themselves competing for the same jobs as high school graduates.
A Harvard or Oxford degree is as good as ever. It is just that the degrees from random overseas universities do not carry as much weight as before.
BTW, "sea turtle" is actually a kind of wordplay. In Chinese, the words "turtle" and "return" share the same pronounciation.
Good. Stay the fuck home, you little pinko thieves, and steal intellectual property from home.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 13, 2012, 04:25:06 AM
It is just that the degrees from random overseas universities do not carry as much weight as before.
Media studies from Larborough University doesn't do the trick? :(
How does a degree from UBC stack up Mono?
Plenty still coming to UWyo. I even had a Chinese grad assistant a couple of years ago.
They'll still come. The spies need cover.
Quote from: Barrister on August 13, 2012, 11:48:59 AM
How does a degree from UBC stack up Mono?
Run of the mill.
I think HK and mainland are a bit different about overseas degrees. HK companies still very much value overseas degrees, because overseas graduates generally have better English. Mainland companies don't value English proficiency that much, because a lot of their clients and suppliers are Chinese. HK companies use English in everyday internal communication and require every employee other than janitors to be good at it; Mainland ones operate on the basis of Chinese and they only need English speakers when they occasionally deal with overseas contacts.
Quote from: Neil on August 13, 2012, 12:54:17 PM
They'll still come. The spies need cover.
It is really tough to get into a university here. The exams and the competition are brutal. A lot of kids from upper middle class families or above can't make it, and they know that their only way out is to send the kids overseas. Unless they are happy with their kids producing ipads, that is.
The problem is that employers are beginning to see through the trick.
I wonder if the increase in Chinese students abroad leading to the "Language skills" thing no longer being true is a factor.
Certainly when I was at uni 99% of the Chinese students stayed in their own little Chinese cliques and never mixed with other students. I'd imagine this wouldn't help their English too much....
Quote from: Tyr on August 15, 2012, 09:33:47 PM
I wonder if the increase in Chinese students abroad leading to the "Language skills" thing no longer being true is a factor.
Certainly when I was at uni 99% of the Chinese students stayed in their own little Chinese cliques and never mixed with other students. I'd imagine this wouldn't help their English too much....
The textbooks and the exams are in English. The professors speak English. This is certainly miles better than in China where everything is in Chinese.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 15, 2012, 09:54:43 PM
he textbooks and the exams are in English. The professors speak English. This is certainly miles better than in China where everything is in Chinese.
Written English anyway...
A lot of them don't seem to be able to speak it.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 13, 2012, 07:27:22 PM
Quote from: Neil on August 13, 2012, 12:54:17 PM
They'll still come. The spies need cover.
It is really tough to get into a university here. The exams and the competition are brutal. A lot of kids from upper middle class families or above can't make it, and they know that their only way out is to send the kids overseas. Unless they are happy with their kids producing ipads, that is.
The problem is that employers are beginning to see through the trick.
Those exams don't mean jackshit about how competent a student is. I'd pick some kid who went to a western university where they were taught to write and think over someone who aced the Chinese exam every time.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 16, 2012, 01:14:37 AM
Those exams don't mean jackshit about how competent a student is. I'd pick some kid who went to a western university where they were taught to write and think over someone who aced the Chinese exam every time.
I am not sure that everybody who has graduated from a western university automatically possesses independent and critical thinking skills.
Quote from: Monoriu on August 16, 2012, 01:24:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 16, 2012, 01:14:37 AM
Those exams don't mean jackshit about how competent a student is. I'd pick some kid who went to a western university where they were taught to write and think over someone who aced the Chinese exam every time.
I am not sure that everybody who has graduated from a western university automatically possesses independent and critical thinking skills.
Of course not everybody does, but the odds are certainly higher that they do.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 16, 2012, 01:38:02 AM
Of course not everybody does, but the odds are certainly higher that they do.
Having gone through a western university myself, I'm not even sure about that.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 16, 2012, 01:38:02 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on August 16, 2012, 01:24:13 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on August 16, 2012, 01:14:37 AM
Those exams don't mean jackshit about how competent a student is. I'd pick some kid who went to a western university where they were taught to write and think over someone who aced the Chinese exam every time.
I am not sure that everybody who has graduated from a western university automatically possesses independent and critical thinking skills.
Of course not everybody does, but the odds are certainly higher that they do.
Well, that is what everybody always says :hmm: