So, as you probably know, I'm part of a gay-friendly guild in WoW. It used to have mainly gay guys (so the guild chat alternated between a gutter talk and half a dozen people rage-quitting each day amidst drama) but recently we got overrun by lesbians.
Effect?
Someone threw an off-hand comment in the guild chat, saying about the opposing team in PvP that "we are going to rape them". And all the hell broke lose, with the dykes screaming essentially how he/she shouldn't say "rape" because it is offensive and a crime and so many women are raped every day.
:bleeding:
I should perhaps mention that for some reason these are mainly Swedish lesbians.
Pics?
Swedes are politically correct zombies man. Purge all Swedes from your guild.
It sort of reminds me of these feminist blogs I read where some woman will innoncently throw out a comment like how it summer and the men are looking hot where she goes jogging. The inevitable 'OMG you objectify people based on appearance? WORSE THAN PATRIARCHAL HITLER!' call out is always just seconds away.
I don't know - I mean isn't it really necessary to use the word rape in this context?
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 12:13:17 PM
I don't know - I mean isn't it really necessary to use the word rape in this context?
This is a completely wrong mindset.
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 12:13:17 PM
I don't know - I mean isn't it really necessary to use the word rape in this context?
Indeed it is.
Oh, btw, I told them it is rather hypocritical and over-sensitive to be upset by the use of a word "rape" in a game that features torture, kidnapping, brutal killing and has skills like "Eviscerate" and "Execute", and they bit my head off.
Quote from: Martinus on August 09, 2012, 01:18:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 12:13:17 PM
I don't know - I mean isn't it really necessary to use the word rape in this context?
This is a completely wrong mindset.
I don't think so. While certainly there is no reason to throw a hissyfit over it - I don't see what's the harm in examining the language we use and whether we are wise to use it. Certainly not in this online age where are words can continue to exist online even after we're gone.
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 09, 2012, 01:18:22 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 12:13:17 PM
I don't know - I mean isn't it really necessary to use the word rape in this context?
This is a completely wrong mindset.
I don't think so. While certainly there is no reason to throw a hissyfit over it - I don't see what's the harm in examining the language we use and whether we are wise to use it. Certainly not in this online age where are words can continue to exist online even after we're gone.
There is no harm at all but this is not that. But first you should do it politely and preferably have a relationship with the person. Aggressively humiliating them publicly with a call out, especially when you know they meant no harm, is an attack and pretty intimidating not some honest attempt to change people's thinking. Look how they attempted to intimdate Marty when he challenged them. Is aggression and intimidation the right way to examine the language we use?
Why not send a tell asking them not reconsider using the term 'rape' first?
No, of course not - clearly they acted rather boorish. Marti, however, said that I had the completely wrong mindset for questioning whether certain terms are necessary or appropriate in the given situation.
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 02:15:26 PM
No, of course not - clearly they acted rather boorish. Marti, however, said that I had the completely wrong mindset for questioning whether certain terms are necessary or appropriate in the given situation.
Ah gotcha.
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 02:15:26 PM
No, of course not - clearly they acted rather boorish. Marti, however, said that I had the completely wrong mindset for questioning whether certain terms are necessary or appropriate in the given situation.
:huh: Make up your mind.
Quote from: The Brain on August 09, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 02:15:26 PM
No, of course not - clearly they acted rather boorish. Marti, however, said that I had the completely wrong mindset for questioning whether certain terms are necessary or appropriate in the given situation.
:huh: Make up your mind.
About?
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 02:34:06 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 09, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 02:15:26 PM
No, of course not - clearly they acted rather boorish. Marti, however, said that I had the completely wrong mindset for questioning whether certain terms are necessary or appropriate in the given situation.
:huh: Make up your mind.
About?
First you strongly supported the use of the word rape and now you seem to have changed your mind.
Where did I say I wanted people to use the word rape in this context? :unsure:
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 02:40:10 PM
Where did I say I wanted people to use the word rape in this context? :unsure:
QuoteI mean isn't it really necessary to use the word rape in this context?
Sound familiar?
Looks like a typo. :P
I find it utterly ridiculous that the word "rape" would offend anyone when used in the context of an online game simularing deathly and brutal conflict, where words like "slay", "murder" or "kill" are used fairly regularly. I refuse to even stop to consider and engage with a point of view of a person who raises an objection like this, because such person is clearly insane.
People who bring such mindset to an online game - or indeed, the world at large - must be fought with extreme prejudice, because by allowing their insane views to even be considered as equal to the views of the rest of the public, we are letting the world to slowly turn into an unbearable experience for everyone involved.
It's like those cretins who attacked that comedian for making a rape joke a few weeks ago. Such people are the enemy.
I don't think that someone might take offense is the issue.
Besides, this is a rather hypocritical stance for you to take - Mr. If You Say Something Bad About Gays I'm Offended. Must be because their lesbians.
As a Pole you'd think he knew something about Solidarity.
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 05:22:59 PM
I don't think that someone might take offense is the issue.
Besides, this is a rather hypocritical stance for you to take - Mr. If You Say Something Bad About Gays I'm Offended. Must be because their lesbians.
I don't either - for example I am equally livid because the UK police have arrested a guy who made a bad joke about two gay athletes on twitter. I think we have gone too far when it comes to political correctness and it's time to fight back before it's too late.
Someone needs to rape your tight little virgin asshole and FINALLY make a proper faggot out of you.
I nominate Valmy.
Quote from: Fireblade on August 09, 2012, 10:30:31 PM
Someone needs to rape your tight little virgin asshole and FINALLY make a proper faggot out of you.
I nominate Valmy.
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIGHT LITTLE VIRGIN ASSHOLES ARE RAPED EVERYDAY!!111 :angry:
Quote from: Martinus on August 09, 2012, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 09, 2012, 05:22:59 PM
I don't think that someone might take offense is the issue.
Besides, this is a rather hypocritical stance for you to take - Mr. If You Say Something Bad About Gays I'm Offended. Must be because their lesbians.
I don't either - for example I am equally livid because the UK police have arrested a guy who made a bad joke about two gay athletes on twitter. I think we have gone too far when it comes to political correctness and it's time to fight back before it's too late.
I don't think political correctness is the issue either.
There can be the notion of avoiding being an asshole. Throwing the term rape around willy nilly can make you an asshole.
Quote from: Valmy on August 09, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
Quote from: Fireblade on August 09, 2012, 10:30:31 PM
Someone needs to rape your tight little virgin asshole and FINALLY make a proper faggot out of you.
I nominate Valmy.
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIGHT LITTLE VIRGIN ASSHOLES ARE RAPED EVERYDAY!!111 :angry:
You can't rape the willing...?
Quote from: garbon on August 10, 2012, 12:53:06 AM
Throwing the term rape around willy nilly can make you an asshole.
Why? And don't try to twist the discussion into something else. Why does it make you an asshole to use the term rape in this context?
Quote from: katmai on August 09, 2012, 05:25:11 PM
As a Pole you'd think he knew something about Solidarity.
I have a cock and I suck cocks. Why would I feel Solidarity with people who have pussies and eat pussies? :huh:
How do you feel when people use 'gay' in its modern kid sense meaning something is shit?
Quote from: Tyr on August 10, 2012, 01:00:38 AM
How do you feel when people use 'gay' in its modern kid sense meaning something is shit?
I'm neutral about it. I used to hate it but then I saw the "don't say gay" PSA commercials with Wanda Sykes and thought the cure was worse than the disease.
Quote from: Valmy on August 09, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
Quote from: Fireblade on August 09, 2012, 10:30:31 PM
Someone needs to rape your tight little virgin asshole and FINALLY make a proper faggot out of you.
I nominate Valmy.
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIGHT LITTLE VIRGIN ASSHOLES ARE RAPED EVERYDAY!!111 :angry:
How many do you personally rape each day, Valmy?
Quote from: dps on August 10, 2012, 01:06:39 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 09, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
Quote from: Fireblade on August 09, 2012, 10:30:31 PM
Someone needs to rape your tight little virgin asshole and FINALLY make a proper faggot out of you.
I nominate Valmy.
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIGHT LITTLE VIRGIN ASSHOLES ARE RAPED EVERYDAY!!111 :angry:
How many do you personally rape each day, Valmy?
Don't answer. It's a trap.
With creatures like the Tauren about one can see why a lesbian Swedish gnome might be over-sensitive about the use of the term.
I agree with Garbon, at least to an extent, it is not a courteous term to use. Having said that it doesn't rate more than a barely detectable twitch of the left eyebrow.
It doesn't sound quite right Marti, which is probably irrational but then so is much of human life.
The lesbians play tauren. :contract:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 10, 2012, 01:27:35 AM
I agree with Garbon, at least to an extent, it is not a courteous term to use. Having said that it doesn't rate more than a barely detectable twitch of the left eyebrow.
This.
One difference that I can see (which falls under courtesy and is therefore probably incomprehensible to Martinus) is that it it unlikely any of the people one meets in a game like WoW have been tortured or brutally murdered. Some of them probably have been raped.
Quote from: Maximus on August 10, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
One difference that I can see (which falls under courtesy and is therefore probably incomprehensible to Martinus) is that it it unlikely any of the people one meets in a game like WoW have been tortured or brutally murdered. Some of them probably have been raped.
Seriously? I didn't think anyone would bring up this argument. It is completely ridiculous. Plus, someone's family may have been tortured or murdered.
Quote from: Maximus on August 10, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
One difference that I can see (which falls under courtesy and is therefore probably incomprehensible to Martinus) is that it it unlikely any of the people one meets in a game like WoW have been tortured or brutally murdered. Some of them probably have been raped.
He plays on a Euro sever Max so half Balkan players probably tortured or brutally murdered their ethnic enemies at some point.
My problem isn't really with "think before you speak" thing but that we have now reached the point in our culture where people actually try to legislate such rules. I think people should have a right to be assholes.
Quote from: Valmy on August 10, 2012, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: Maximus on August 10, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
One difference that I can see (which falls under courtesy and is therefore probably incomprehensible to Martinus) is that it it unlikely any of the people one meets in a game like WoW have been tortured or brutally murdered. Some of them probably have been raped.
He plays on a Euro sever Max so half Balkan players probably tortured or brutally murdered their ethnic enemies at some point.
Well, this being Swedish women who complained, for all we know, they may have been raped as recently as yesterday when some guy opened a door for them in a store.
And for the record, while I don't know anyone who has been raped (or at least who told me that), one of my good childhood friends committed suicide by cutting his intenstine out with a pair of scissors while in a drug-induced delirium. Should I therefore be offended when someone uses the word "eviscerate"?
Although I guess I agree with Louis CK that we should consider other people's perspective too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVXHX53GmJ4
Edit: Sorry I thought this was a footage from the Daily Show, not some idiot's commentary to it. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Martinus on August 10, 2012, 09:52:55 AM
My problem isn't really with "think before you speak" thing but that we have now reached the point in our culture where people actually try to legislate such rules. I think people should have a right to be assholes.
Were the lesbians legislating? :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on August 10, 2012, 09:54:02 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 10, 2012, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: Maximus on August 10, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
One difference that I can see (which falls under courtesy and is therefore probably incomprehensible to Martinus) is that it it unlikely any of the people one meets in a game like WoW have been tortured or brutally murdered. Some of them probably have been raped.
He plays on a Euro sever Max so half Balkan players probably tortured or brutally murdered their ethnic enemies at some point.
Well, this being Swedish women who complained, for all we know, they may have been raped as recently as yesterday when some guy opened a door for them in a store.
:D
It's funny because it's true.
Quote from: Martinus on August 10, 2012, 09:45:26 AM
Quote from: Maximus on August 10, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
(which falls under courtesy and is therefore probably incomprehensible to Martinus)
Seriously? I didn't think anyone would bring up this argument. It is completely ridiculous. Plus, someone's family may have been tortured or murdered.
QED
Using the term like that is, of course, rude -- but so's a poker game in my garage, and I'd be as upset as what Marti is if somebody new came along & upset the Status Quo...
You need to treat other people in WoW like badly-programmed AI. That's what I do when I instance with random people and it works surprisingly well.
Personally I prefer the term "bugger them senseless"; but I fear you have to be male, British, middle class and over 40 for it not to count as discourteous :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 11, 2012, 02:00:52 AM
Personally I prefer the term "bugger them senseless"; but I fear you have to be male, British, middle class and over 40 for it not to count as discourteous :hmm:
It's insensitive to all WoW players who have been buggered senseless.
What bothers me too is that, whenever person A tells a joke (or uses a word like "rape" or "gay") and person B is offended by it, as a rule of thumb there is a social pressure put on person A to reexamine his or her position and realize why person B was offended - and not on person B to reexamine his or her position and perhaps realize that he or she should not be offended.
This is especially troubling considering that the feeling of being offended is probably one of the most destructive social feelings, as it leads to divisiveness, hatred or even violence - whereas the feeling of flippant amusement expressed by person A carries none of these effects.
So perhaps rather than dealing with multiculturalism and diversity by sending people to sensitivity trainings, we should instead start sending them to insensitivity trainings and teach them how to stop seeing their personal reaction as an objective measure of another person's intentions.
So in a sense, to put it differently, rather than telling people "think before you speak", we should start telling them "think before you react" - if someone uses some expression or tells a joke clearly not with an intention of making you feel bad, think why it nonetheless makes you feel bad and examine that feeling before you react. And above all else, do not get offended for other people's sake.
Not to mention, it's more economical. If you for example are at a workplace with 30 other people, and each of these people (including you) have 3 different things that offend them, it's much more sensible for each person to adjust his or her behaviour in three ways (i.e. trying to stop being offended by three different things), than to adjust his or her behavour in ninety ways, by stopping doing things that offend someone else.
Not gonna happen though. In Sweden ordinary people think that a guy who made a badly drawn image of Mohammed and now have Muslims trying to murder him "asked for it".
We have had peak freedom. At least I got to live through it.
Quote from: The Brain on August 11, 2012, 04:05:20 AM
Not gonna happen though. In Sweden ordinary people think that a guy who made a badly drawn image of Mohammed and now have Muslims trying to murder him "asked for it".
Yeah, it's amazing how people who would rally at such line of reasoning when it comes to e.g. rape happily embrace it elsewhere.
It's like in Poland where we have this soft version of archaic blasphemy laws (they prohibit "offending religious feelings") under which a pop music singer was recently fined for saying in an interview that the Bible was written by drugged and drunk old dudes who didn't have any idea about reality. Now, rather than advocating for this law to be abolished, the majority of the left instead campaigns for extending this to stuff offending people because of their race or sexuality.
People are a bunch of totalitarian cunts.
We are back to Voltaire.
I'm strongly in favour of politeness, with so many irritating bastards in the world I think it is a useful emollient. But I am also totally against laws which directly attack free speech. The modern state exceeds its rightful authority as it expands into these areas IMO.
Quote from: Martinus on August 11, 2012, 03:48:25 AM
So perhaps rather than dealing with multiculturalism and diversity by sending people to sensitivity trainings, we should instead start sending them to insensitivity trainings and teach them how to stop seeing their personal reaction as an objective measure of another person's intentions.
Disagree. Prefer Dr. Dennis Leary's approach to therapy of just telling people to Go Fuck Themselves...
"I feel so much better! He just told me to go fuck myself! Nobody ever told me that before!"
:ccr
Quote from: Caliga on August 10, 2012, 09:35:11 PM
You need to treat other people in MMORPGs like badly-programmed AI. That's what I do when I instance with random people and it works surprisingly well.
fixed for you :)
Quote from: Martinus on August 11, 2012, 03:56:54 AM
So in a sense, to put it differently, rather than telling people "think before you speak", we should start telling them "think before you react" - if someone uses some expression or tells a joke clearly not with an intention of making you feel bad, think why it nonetheless makes you feel bad and examine that feeling before you react. And above all else, do not get offended for other people's sake.
Not to mention, it's more economical. If you for example are at a workplace with 30 other people, and each of these people (including you) have 3 different things that offend them, it's much more sensible for each person to adjust his or her behaviour in three ways (i.e. trying to stop being offended by three different things), than to adjust his or her behavour in ninety ways, by stopping doing things that offend someone else.
This reminds me of a Bill James quote that I think I had in my signature for a while. I don't have the text right in front of me, so this might not be an exact quote, but it was something like, "Tolerance lies not in a determination to avoid giving offense, but rather in a determination to avoid taking offense".
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on August 11, 2012, 06:01:52 AM
I'm strongly in favour of politeness, with so many irritating bastards in the world I think it is a useful emollient. But I am also totally against laws which directly attack free speech. The modern state exceeds its rightful authority as it expands into these areas IMO.
Agreed. Of course, naturally Marti wraps this up in a guise of legislating against free speech (something that is not present in the opening example) so that he can justify being an asshole.