Why are we still helping these people? :bleeding:
http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/23/11827022-pakistan-jails-doctor-who-helped-cia-find-osama-bin-laden?lite
QuotePakistan jails doctor who helped CIA find Osama bin Laden
By NBC News and news services
Updated at 10:55 a.m. ET: PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- A Pakistani doctor accused of helping the CIA find Osama bin Laden was convicted of high treason and sentenced to 33 years in prison on Wednesday.
Shakil Afridi ran a vaccination program for the American intelligence agency to collect DNA and verify bin Laden's presence at the compound in the town of Abbottabad, where he was killed last May by U.S. commandos.
A U.S. official implicitly criticized the sentence. "Without commenting on specific individuals, anyone who helped the United States find bin Laden was working against al-Qaida and not against Pakistan," Pentagon spokesman George Little said.
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton has previously called for Afridi to be released, saying his work served Pakistani and American interests.
Afridi was also ordered to pay a fine of about $3,500, Nasir Khan, a government official in the Khyber tribal area, told The Associated Press. If he doesn't pay, he will spend another three and half years in prison, Khan said.
Obama aides gave classified information on bin Laden raid for film, watchdog says
His imprisonment is likely to anger ally Washington at a sensitive time, with both sides engaged in difficult talks over re-opening NATO supply routes to U.S.-led troops in Afghanistan.
Panetta: Pakistan doctor gave US key bin Laden intel
U.S. officials had hoped Pakistan, a recipient of billions of dollars in American aid, would release Afridi. He was detained after the unilateral operation which killed bin Laden and strained ties with Islamabad.
In January, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said in a television interview that Afridi and his team had been key in finding bin Laden, describing him as helpful and insisting the doctor had not committed treason or harmed Pakistan.
U.S. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher introduced legislation in February calling for Afridi to be granted American citizenship and said it was "shameful and unforgivable that our supposed allies" charged him.
Afridi was arrested soon after bin Laden was killed, and has not been publicly heard of since. Seventeen health workers who worked with him on the vaccination drive were fired in March, according to termination letters seen by Reuters, which described them as having acted "against the national interest."
On May 2, one year after bin Laden's death, some of them appeared at the site where bin Laden's run-down white cement and brick house stood before it was demolished by Pakistani authorities.
"He (Afridi) was very nice to all the people in the team and did his job very diligently," Naseem Bibi, one of the health workers told Reuters, holding one of the notices. "Yes he was very interested in this house on that day (of the vaccination drive) but I am not sure why."
NBC News' Mushtaq Yusufzai, Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
Why are we still helping these people? :bleeding:
Because they offered us a better deal on truck routes to Afghanistan than Iran did.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:15:10 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
Why are we still helping these people? :bleeding:
Because they offered us a better deal on truck routes to Afghanistan than Iran did.
We should leave Afghanistan and then completely abandon Pakistan.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
Why are we still helping these people? :bleeding:
You're not.
As he is a doctor he is, by definition, not human and devoid of human emotions. He can be treated however the Pakis want to treat him.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
Why are we still helping these people? :bleeding:
keep your enemies closer.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
Why are we still helping these people? :bleeding:
They have nuclear weapons.
I thought there'd be more outrage here. Isn't this them basically admitting they knew where Osama was and then punishing someone for leaking it? That's a big fucking deal.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 11:31:01 PM
I thought there'd be more outrage here.
Embrace apathy. :hug:
I care Tim.
I was going to launch a rescue operation, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 23, 2012, 11:31:01 PM
I thought there'd be more outrage here. Isn't this them basically admitting they knew where Osama was and then punishing someone for leaking it? That's a big fucking deal.
It is pretty shitty. I don't understand why we didn't do anything early on to help this guy and his family (assuming he has one). It's not like the fake vaccination program wasn't going to be big news over there once it broke.
He was convicted by a tribal court, and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing-- hopefully their federal authorities can overrule the conviction somehow, and it's not like we don't have some leverage. Hopefully we don't just leave him out to dry.
Quote from: Jaron on May 24, 2012, 12:10:49 AM
I care Tim.
I was going to launch a rescue operation, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Is "arrow to the knee" Provo-speak for "dildo to the ass"?
Quote from: PRC on May 24, 2012, 12:45:33 AM
Quote from: Jaron on May 24, 2012, 12:10:49 AM
I care Tim.
I was going to launch a rescue operation, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Is "arrow to the knee" Provo-speak for "dildo to the ass"?
No, despite your wishful thoughts I am still not an option for you. :homestar:
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
I bet if the doctor wore a pink coat instead of a white coat you'd be whistling a different tune.
I agree with Marty. What he did was right. But he gave information to another country that led to a military strike in his own country. I don't think it's surprising or outrageous that he's convicted of treason, even if it was in a good cause.
You'd think getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this...
Quote from: Tyr on May 24, 2012, 04:08:38 AM
You'd think getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this...
No shit. Wouldn't ask for anything less than my ass on one of those choppers on the way out from the hit.
NO IM NOT TELLING YOU WHERE HE IS BUT ILL MEET YOU THERE
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
Agreed. It sucks that Pakistan considered bin Laden to be part of their country, but what do you expect? Pakistan is no friend to the West, but it wants Western aid, and so will punish anyone who demonstrates that their facade of being "allies in the war on Terror" is just that: a facade.
I read that as "Doctor Who helped CIA find Osama bin Laden". Now that would have been a story!
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
I'll quote this post next time you twist your panties about that Wikileaks fag.
Quote from: Brazen on May 24, 2012, 06:52:23 AM
I read that as "Doctor Who helped CIA find Osama bin Laden". Now that would have been a story!
Only if it was Tom Baker.
Quote from: Tyr on May 24, 2012, 04:08:38 AM
You'd think getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this...
Yeah WTF was that dude still doing over there? Way to encourage other people from helping.
Quote from: Brazen on May 24, 2012, 06:52:23 AM
I read that as "Doctor Who helped CIA find Osama bin Laden". Now that would have been a story!
You were not the only one. :lol:
Quote from: Neil on May 24, 2012, 07:44:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
I'll quote this post next time you twist your panties about that Wikileaks fag.
Unless the Pakistani doctor sucks cock, then it's OK.
Being thrown under the bus by your employers if you're exposed is just part of the job description of being a spy.
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
This guy is a citizen of country A that ostensibly was involved in the hunt for Osama and considered him a fugitive from justice.
Quote from: Neil on May 24, 2012, 07:44:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
I'll quote this post next time you twist your panties about that Wikileaks fag.
Heh, good point.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2012, 09:09:29 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 24, 2012, 01:21:33 AM
Gee. If you are a citizen of country A and spy on country A for country B, don't expect your country A to like it. :huh:
This guy is a citizen of country A that ostensibly was involved in the hunt for Osama and considered him a fugitive from justice.
Yeah I was about to say...it was not like he helped the US assassinate a Pakistani citizen but a foreigner and an international criminal who Pakistan was pretending to be hunting for.
I'm thinking and hoping that the US will put pressure on Pakistan over this doctor. Maybe allow him to leave and come to the US or something.
Pakistan is a messed up place. We see reports of the ISI helping the Taliban make attacks in Afghanistan, stuff like that. And on the other hand the govt was going after some of the radical enclaves a while ago. They need to decide what side of all this that they're on since they have these radicals living and operating in their own country.
Nah. This way, we don't have to pay him the reward. Got to find the spending cuts somewhere.
Quote from: KRonn on May 24, 2012, 09:29:03 AM
Pakistan is a messed up place. We see reports of the ISI helping the Taliban make attacks in Afghanistan, stuff like that. And on the other hand the govt was going after some of the radical enclaves a while ago. They need to decide what side of all this that they're on since they have these radicals living and operating in their own country.
They surrendered to the radicals.
Quote from: Brazen on May 24, 2012, 06:52:23 AM
I read that as "Doctor Who helped CIA find Osama bin Laden". Now that would have been a story!
Same. :D
Conviction for treason suggest that OBL's location was a state secret.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2012, 09:09:29 AM
This guy is a citizen of country A that ostensibly was involved in the hunt for Osama and considered him a fugitive from justice.
Yeah. The non-treasonous thing to do is to report that to someone in authority in country A, not to tell country B who you would expect to use military force. Obviously what he did was right and I think he should have been got out of Pakistan by the US before now. But fundamentally he helped a foreign country's intelligence service that led to a military strike in his own country. I don't see how he isn't a traitor - albeit in a good cause against a country whose establishment deserves betrayal.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 02:58:53 PM
Yeah. The non-treasonous thing to do is to report that to someone in authority in country A, not to tell country B who you would expect to use military force. Obviously what he did was right and I think he should have been got out of Pakistan by the US before now. But fundamentally he helped a foreign country's intelligence service that led to a military strike in his own country. I don't see how he isn't a traitor - albeit in a good cause against a country whose establishment deserves betrayal.
The only way he is a traitor is if Osama's location in Pakistan was a state secret.
Was the US strike approved by Pakistani authorities? If not then aiding it seems treasonous to me. Not that I am an expert on Pakistani law or anything.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2012, 03:09:31 PM
The only way he is a traitor is if Osama's location in Pakistan was a state secret.
I think it was clear that the information would lead to a military attack of some sort on Pakistani soil. The only way to make sure that happened with the approval and cooperation of Pakistan is by informing the Pakistani authorities. Working with the Americans, while right, was helping a foreign power attack your country. I don't see how that can be anything but treason.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 03:13:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2012, 03:09:31 PM
The only way he is a traitor is if Osama's location in Pakistan was a state secret.
I think it was clear that the information would lead to a military attack of some sort on Pakistani soil. The only way to make sure that happened with the approval and cooperation of Pakistan is by informing the Pakistani authorities. Working with the Americans, while right, was helping a foreign power attack your country. I don't see how that can be anything but treason.
I don't know. Did he think that the US would just invade Pakistani territory without discussing it with Pakistan? After all, we aren't Israel. :lol:
To be fair, on the flip side of the coin, this doctor just made vaccinating the populace THAT much harder; now that the cat's out of the bag on the DNA sampling through vaccinations, the more suspicious rubes are going to be more resistant to vaccination efforts. I'm not going to even pretend that that's actually part of the real justification, though.
I'm sure they can listen to their bodies just like Western folks can. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 03:13:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2012, 03:09:31 PM
The only way he is a traitor is if Osama's location in Pakistan was a state secret.
I think it was clear that the information would lead to a military attack of some sort on Pakistani soil. The only way to make sure that happened with the approval and cooperation of Pakistan is by informing the Pakistani authorities. Working with the Americans, while right, was helping a foreign power attack your country. I don't see how that can be anything but treason.
No, the last two or three times the US or Afghanistan found Bin Laden and told Pakistan where he is and Bin Laden was moved.
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2012, 03:29:30 PM
No, the last two or three times the US or Afghanistan found Bin Laden and told Pakistan where he is and Bin Laden was moved.
So? That makes him right. It doesn't make him any less of a traitor.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 03:33:50 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2012, 03:29:30 PM
No, the last two or three times the US or Afghanistan found Bin Laden and told Pakistan where he is and Bin Laden was moved.
So? That makes him right. It doesn't make him any less of a traitor.
No, it just means he could not expect that his info would lead to the eventual result. I'm not claiming he wasn't a traitor, I'm saying that if he is a traitor then the Bin Laden's location was a Pakistani state secret.
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2012, 03:37:10 PM
No, it just means he could not expect that his info would lead to the eventual result.
I don't dispute that. It's a good reason for what he did. But he also couldn't expect anything but military action by the US - which makes him a traitor regardless of whether it's a state secret or not.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 03:39:58 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2012, 03:37:10 PM
No, it just means he could not expect that his info would lead to the eventual result.
I don't dispute that. It's a good reason for what he did. But he also couldn't expect anything but military action by the US - which makes him a traitor regardless of whether it's a state secret or not.
I don't agree that he couldn't expect anything but military action. The reason I think that is that the last few times the US found OBL in pakistan they didn't invade.
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2012, 03:45:21 PM
I don't agree that he couldn't expect anything but military action. The reason I think that is that the last few times the US found OBL in pakistan they didn't invade.
Okay. But that was a while ago, at least to my knowledge. While the biggest issue in Pakistani politics for the last few years has been the relationship with the US and drone attacks in the tribal regions, and Obama's remarks that he would use force if he got actionable intelligence that bin Laden was in Pakistan were very heavily reported there. He could have not expected any military action, but I think you'd have to assume an extraordinary amount of naivete on his part to justify that.
Also does it even matter? He knowingly gave information to a foreign power that led to a military attack on his country. Surely that's treason regardless of whether or not he should have expected the attack?
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 04:03:46 PM
Quote from: Viking on May 24, 2012, 03:45:21 PM
I don't agree that he couldn't expect anything but military action. The reason I think that is that the last few times the US found OBL in pakistan they didn't invade.
Okay. But that was a while ago, at least to my knowledge. While the biggest issue in Pakistani politics for the last few years has been the relationship with the US and drone attacks in the tribal regions, and Obama's remarks that he would use force if he got actionable intelligence that bin Laden was in Pakistan were very heavily reported there. He could have not expected any military action, but I think you'd have to assume an extraordinary amount of naivete on his part to justify that.
Also does it even matter? He knowingly gave information to a foreign power that led to a military attack on his country. Surely that's treason regardless of whether or not he should have expected the attack?
I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that is actually illegal or even treasonous. Remember, a the time of the raid the public position of Pakistan was that they didn't know where he was, they didn't think he was in pakistan and if he was he'd be arrested. He was looking for a fugitive from Pakistani justice.
So to be non-treasonous he should have told the Pakistanis. He had very good reasons not to but that doesn't change the fact that most of the time it could be treasonous to be providing info to a foreign intelligence agency. If it leads to a military attack I'm sure it almost always would be.
The information and the attack are two seperate acts. The dude didn't set the policy to cap bin Laden. It's not treasonous to pass on information unless it's a state secret. You wouldn't be committing treason if you told the US ambassador that Tricky Dick lives in...wherever the hell he lives.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 04:20:08 PM
So to be non-treasonous he should have told the Pakistanis. He had very good reasons not to but that doesn't change the fact that most of the time it could be treasonous to be providing info to a foreign intelligence agency. If it leads to a military attack I'm sure it almost always would be.
It is not treasonous to give information to a foreign intelligence agency. Unless specifically made illegal you can give private, proprietary or public information to anybody you want to. It's only treason if the doctor knew that pakistan was hiding him.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 24, 2012, 03:13:36 PM
I think it was clear that the information would lead to a military attack of some sort on Pakistani soil. The only way to make sure that happened with the approval and cooperation of Pakistan is by informing the Pakistani authorities. Working with the Americans, while right, was helping a foreign power attack your country. I don't see how that can be anything but treason.
I suspect that you are correct, in that Pakistan almost certainly uses the very broad British definition of treason as opposed to the very narrow American one. This wouldn't be treason in the US, of course, since the US definition of treason is spelled out in the US constitution, and requires giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the US.
The definition of treason you use sucks, IMO, but you are almost certainly right that it fits him.
Quote from: Tyr on May 24, 2012, 04:08:38 AM
You'd think getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this...
It was. But don't forget who we got in the White House.
Quote from: Siege on May 24, 2012, 05:00:28 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 24, 2012, 04:08:38 AM
You'd think getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this...
It was. But don't forget who we got in the White House.
I forget. Who we got in the White House?
Quote from: Siege on May 24, 2012, 05:00:28 PM
It was. But don't forget who we got in the White House.
:yeahright: Wouldn't that be more likely to fall on Hillary?
Maybe Panetta?
"The buck stops here". In other words, it's Harry Truman's fault for his disastrous Mid-east policy, still bearing fruits 60-odd years later.
Quote from: Siege on May 24, 2012, 05:00:28 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 24, 2012, 04:08:38 AM
You'd think getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this...
It was. (snip)
Bullshit. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that he thought the Pakistani government would approve, and he'd be a bigger hero in Pakistan than in the US.
Unless you have evidence that he wanted to come to the US rather than stay in Pakistan, I call shenanigans on your claim that "it was" true that "getting a ticket to America would be a key part of agreeing to do this."
Magical thinking gets you nowhere, my friend.
In what is certainly going to be seen as another weak move by the Obama gov't, the US offers to pay Pakistan for the release of the captive doctor:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/24/us-pakistan-aid-doctor-bin-laden?newsfeed=true
The payment method should be missiles. Express delivery.
Quote from: Jaron on May 24, 2012, 09:39:58 PM
In what is certainly going to be seen as another weak move by the Obama gov't, the US offers to pay Pakistan for the release of the captive doctor:
By whom? I'm thumbs up.
Quote from: Jaron on May 24, 2012, 09:39:58 PM
In what is certainly going to be seen as another weak move by the Obama gov't, the US offers to pay Pakistan for the release of the captive doctor:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/24/us-pakistan-aid-doctor-bin-laden?newsfeed=true
OMG HES APOLOGIZING FOR AMERICA
I am surprised that Siege wants more Muslims to come to the country.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 24, 2012, 10:07:15 PM
I am surprised that Siege wants more Muslims to come to the country.
Why? In almost every way Siege's politics are identical to those of a jihadi.
Quote from: Neil on May 26, 2012, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 24, 2012, 10:07:15 PM
I am surprised that Siege wants more Muslims to come to the country.
Why? In almost every way Siege's politics are identical to those of a jihadi.
Yes, but fundamentalists from one group tend to dislike fundamentalists from another, and Siege has made his hatred of Muslims fairly plain.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 26, 2012, 09:35:14 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 26, 2012, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 24, 2012, 10:07:15 PM
I am surprised that Siege wants more Muslims to come to the country.
Why? In almost every way Siege's politics are identical to those of a jihadi.
Yes, but fundamentalists from one group tend to dislike fundamentalists from another, and Siege has made his hatred of Muslims fairly plain.
They can all kill each other after they band together to ban sex.
Stop hijacking this thread and let's get back on topic.
Jon Snow cannnot posibly become king because even if he is Rhaegar's, he still a bastard.
There is no way around it. The Fat Man have been fucking wit all of us all along.
I don't think they will ban together. American fundamentalists must hate Muslims. If the looked at how much of their agendas they have in common it would raise some uncomfortable questions. They might find out the problem lies not in the differences of religion but the fundamentalist aspect.
Quote from: Siege on May 26, 2012, 09:46:14 PM
Stop hijacking this thread and let's get back on topic.
Jon Snow cannnot posibly become king because even if he is Rhaegar's, he still a bastard.
There is no way around it. The Fat Man have been fucking wit all of us all along.
Wrong thread.
Jon Snow could be a good king for Pakistan.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 26, 2012, 09:47:57 PM
I don't think they will ban together. American fundamentalists must hate Muslims. If the looked at how much of their agendas they have in common it would raise some uncomfortable questions. They might find out the problem lies not in the differences of religion but the fundamentalist aspect.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz133%2Fsbr32%2FRandom%2520forum%2520crap%2F2uf3v2b.jpg&hash=885d80984652642731c1db76adc0af20ab3634b4)
I want our military to ruthlessly stamp out our enemies. :unsure:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2012, 10:51:04 PM
I want our military to ruthlessly stamp out our enemies. :unsure:
Exactly.
Quote from: sbr on May 26, 2012, 10:52:29 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 26, 2012, 10:51:04 PM
I want our military to ruthlessly stamp out our enemies. :unsure:
Exactly.
But that's the only thing I agreed with on your recruitment poster. I love preaching "tolerance" and "peace". :cry:
But do you practice it?
Quote from: katmai on May 26, 2012, 11:12:26 PM
But do you practice it?
Yes. Yes, I do.
Just not here. This is my litter box.
Didn't you say you got warnings at work for your attitude?
Quote from: Jaron on May 26, 2012, 11:17:35 PM
Didn't you say you got warnings at work for your attitude?
A warning. And if it makes you feel any better, he is white. And stupid.
So, is the dude going to jail or coming to Amerikkka?
GAOL
I thought we were paying his ransom.