This evening I got into an argument with some anarcho-syndicalists ,as you do.
It was an 'interesting' discussion, but not sure it was worth the 30 mile evening roundtrip. :unsure:
Long story short, it was at some solidarity group meeting which protests at the NHS cuts, workfare and disability cuts. Turns out the chairman and two or three others are anarcho-syndicalists, so at the end of the meeting we have discussion about tactics, and I propose that we look into local and parliamentary elections.
This turns out to be a bit of a red, or at least red and black flag, to a bull and what we get is 'their version' of history.
I won't bore you with the details, but I was fascinated to find another group with such an ossified, internally complex, version of what has happened, why stuff they wanted didn't happen and why it will all happen eventually anyway. History to them seems to be some elaborate construct that proves their position today, rather than say something uncertain and up for debate, analysis or discussion.
As you can guess, I got dismissed out of hand, though half of the meeting, the less idealogical ones could see some merit in it.
What they reminded me a bit of were some of the occupy protesters, certain in their own version of how the world works, but having not interest in testing out their hypothesis, like say standing in elections.
The Spanish civil war came up a couple of times, but I didn't feel qualified to make much of a case, saving to say the anarcho-syndicalists where quite as keen as anyone else to commit political violence if the opportunity came up.
So my question is have you encountered any similarly blinkered groups ?
Trots are pretty bad for this too.
Edit: Having said that almost everyone I've met who is seriously involved in something political - whether a party or a protest movement - tends to be pretty odd.
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
Quote from: Sheilbh on April 23, 2012, 07:18:49 PM
Trots are pretty bad for this too.
Edit: Having said that almost everyone I've met who is seriously involved in something political - whether a party or a protest movement - tends to be pretty odd.
But that's a tendency not a blanket statement isn't it Shelf ?
Because these guys came up with a few 'interesting' viewpoints, like that the 'post-war settlement 'in this country wasn't much cop, their activists had already come up with it and the politicians then were just a corrupt as they are now/always have been.
Which is kinda an odd thing to say at a meeting principle aimed at protesting NHS privatisation and so I'd guess by implication that it had been a rather useful national institution. That didn't go down well.
I also took them to task over the idea that the post war labour government was a sell out, filled with the usual corrupt elite politicians. iirc didn't some of the wartime and post-war cabinet ministers in essence work themselves into an early grave ?
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
Oh, yes the British far left have always broken apart like a terry's chocolate orange with only the slightest of prompting; I think it's because it's easier to make enemies of people you know and so can more easily deliberately mis-caracterise their beliefs.
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
Oh, yes the British far left have always broken apart like a terry's chocolate orange with on the slightest of prompting; I think it's because it's easier to make enemies of people you know and so can more easily deliberately mis-caracterise their beliefs.
Its a knock against the left everywhere in the West. I had a NDP policy sci prof who said the left are like a protestants - whenever they disagree, which is often, they go off and start a new church/movement.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
Oh, yes the British far left have always broken apart like a terry's chocolate orange with on the slightest of prompting; I think it's because it's easier to make enemies of people you know and so can more easily deliberately mis-caracterise their beliefs.
Its a knock against the left everywhere in the West. I had a NDP policy sci prof who said the left are like a protestants - whenever they disagree, which is often, they go off and start a new church/movement.
Well the tradition british left is hilarious, there are like two British Socialist Parties that regularly appear at Hyde Park, and as far as I can tell most of the historic, circa 1910 dispute, seems to rest on how the party name should be capitalised.
Well I might slightly over emphasis the case but, iirc neither group has ever had more than 200 members in total, and are now down to probably a half-dozen to 2 or 3 dozen members each. But the original dispute is still very real and ongoing.
:lol:
That is funny. So basically Monty Python just had to go down to Hyde Park and make notes for their next sketch.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
Do you think they're wrong, Mr. Vineyard and French villa owner? :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
Oh, yes the British far left have always broken apart like a terry's chocolate orange with on the slightest of prompting; I think it's because it's easier to make enemies of people you know and so can more easily deliberately mis-caracterise their beliefs.
Its a knock against the left everywhere in the West. I had a NDP policy sci prof who said the left are like a protestants - whenever they disagree, which is often, they go off and start a new church/movement.
You see the same alphabet soup of political parties on the right-wing fringe.
Quote from: Barrister on April 24, 2012, 11:34:10 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
Oh, yes the British far left have always broken apart like a terry's chocolate orange with on the slightest of prompting; I think it's because it's easier to make enemies of people you know and so can more easily deliberately mis-caracterise their beliefs.
Its a knock against the left everywhere in the West. I had a NDP policy sci prof who said the left are like a protestants - whenever they disagree, which is often, they go off and start a new church/movement.
You see the same alphabet soup of political parties on the right-wing fringe.
Do you have some examples?
They are not aiming for actual government so split as soon as they hit an area of disagreement.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 24, 2012, 11:48:37 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 24, 2012, 11:34:10 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Splinter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
Oh, yes the British far left have always broken apart like a terry's chocolate orange with on the slightest of prompting; I think it's because it's easier to make enemies of people you know and so can more easily deliberately mis-caracterise their beliefs.
Its a knock against the left everywhere in the West. I had a NDP policy sci prof who said the left are like a protestants - whenever they disagree, which is often, they go off and start a new church/movement.
You see the same alphabet soup of political parties on the right-wing fringe.
Do you have some examples?
WCC, CHP, COR, WIP, WBP, SPA, WIPS, SoCred, of course the whole Conservative / Progressive Conservative / Reform / Alliance / Conservative party, Alberta Independence, Alberta Alliance,
WCC, CHP, COR, WIP, WBP, SPA, WIPS - what are those.
As for Social Credit - they were, in the BC experience, the coalition party - hardly a splinter. Reform was a true splinter and I will never forgive you for giving us all those years of Liberal rule.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 24, 2012, 02:01:46 PM
WCC, CHP, COR, WIP, WBP, SPA, WIPS - what are those.
As for Social Credit - they were, in the BC experience, the coalition party - hardly a splinter. Reform was a true splinter and I will never forgive you for giving us all those years of Liberal rule.
Western Canada Concept
Christian Heritage Party
Confederation of Regions
Western Independence Party
Western Block Party
Separatist Party of Alberta
Western Independence Party of Saskatchewan (apparently a different one)
And SoCred shambles on in Alberta as yet another fringe right-wing party. 294 people voted SoCred yesterday. :Alberta:
Quote from: Barrister on April 24, 2012, 02:14:50 PM
Western Canada Concept
Christian Heritage Party
Confederation of Regions
Western Independence Party
Western Block Party
Separatist Party of Alberta
Western Independence Party of Saskatchewan (apparently a different one)
But those arent really what Mongers and I are talking about. Those are simply fringe parties. What Mongers is talking about are people that belonged to the same party, didnt like how the other person wore his lapel pin and started another party that had essentially the same platform, with the exception of how one wears their lapel pin.
ie - to the outside observer their differences are hard to understand or even identify. Which is what makes that Monty Python bit so great - they get mixed up about who is who.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
Sadly, they probably didn't even know it was a literary reference.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
The Vagina wall?
Seems the Social Part of Great Britain is in dispute with some johnny come latelys::
Quote
The SPGB is vehemently anti-Leninist and currently fights to protect its identity against Socialist Party of England and Wales, the relatively new name of the Trotskyist former Militant tendency (in propaganda and publicity material the SPGB often styles itself simply The Socialist Party whilst SPEW uses Socialist Party (without the definite article) and contests elections as Socialist Alternative
Handy for us outside observers that we can tell them appart because one own 'The'. :hmm:
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:14:24 PM
I won't bore you with the details, but I was fascinated to find another group with such an ossified, internally complex, version of what has happened, why stuff they wanted didn't happen and why it will all happen eventually anyway. History to them seems to be some elaborate construct that proves their position today, rather than say something uncertain and up for debate, analysis or discussion.
Sounds a little like Viking.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 24, 2012, 03:34:49 PM
Quote from: mongers on April 23, 2012, 07:14:24 PM
I won't bore you with the details, but I was fascinated to find another group with such an ossified, internally complex, version of what has happened, why stuff they wanted didn't happen and why it will all happen eventually anyway. History to them seems to be some elaborate construct that proves their position today, rather than say something uncertain and up for debate, analysis or discussion.
Sounds a little like Viking.
To be fair many of us on languish have our own 'pet' theories, some several more than others.
Oh I forgot to say, at one point, the main anarcho guy started drawing is own ven diagram of how the world/20th century history fits into his idealogical view of the world.
Weirdly he had no idea that many people weren't interested or were finding it somewhat tedious.
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2012, 03:33:29 PM
Seems the Social Part of Great Britain is in dispute with some johnny come latelys::
QuoteThe SPGB is vehemently anti-Leninist and currently fights to protect its identity against Socialist Party of England and Wales, the relatively new name of the Trotskyist former Militant tendency (in propaganda and publicity material the SPGB often styles itself simply The Socialist Party whilst SPEW uses Socialist Party (without the definite article) and contests elections as Socialist Alternative
Handy for us outside observers that we can tell them appart because one own 'The'. :hmm:
SPEW is a great acronym for a Trotskyist group.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2012, 11:32:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
Do you think they're wrong, Mr. Vineyard and French villa owner? :P
I was 21 and working in the K-mart electronics department at the time.
Quote from: Jacob on April 24, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
SPEW is a great acronym for a Trotskyist group.
Why the hate? At least they're not Republicans!
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 24, 2012, 04:05:06 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2012, 11:32:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
Do you think they're wrong, Mr. Vineyard and French villa owner? :P
I was 21 and working in the K-mart electronics department at the time.
You monster!
Quote from: Octavian on April 24, 2012, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 24, 2012, 04:05:06 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 24, 2012, 11:32:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 23, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on April 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
College students. Doesn't matter what the topic is.
I once got told by some Antioch college students that I'd be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Srsly.
Do you think they're wrong, Mr. Vineyard and French villa owner? :P
I was 21 and working in the K-mart electronics department at the time.
You monster!
I did sell Zenith Televisions. :weep:
Quote from: derspiess on April 24, 2012, 04:22:00 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 24, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
SPEW is a great acronym for a Trotskyist group.
Why the hate? At least they're not Republicans!
They may still be. I seem to recall that the neocon movement had some Troskyist influence...
Lol, Zenith was the only brand of TV my granddad would buy.
I'm just trying to draft a 'farewell/I can't be arsed' message, but I'm not sure I can be arsed, pity really because in amongst the are some quite decent people, generally the non-idealogical ones.
Why would you Mongers. Some day you might like a bike ride back to see how the ven diagram worked out. No sense in closing the door now.
They are just going to shout "Splinter!" back at you.
Icepick their tires as a farewell message.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 24, 2012, 05:14:20 PM
Why would you Mongers. Some day you might like a bike ride back to see how the ven diagram worked out. No sense in closing the door now.
They are just going to shout "Splinter!" back at you.
:hmm:
You might have a point, but I think my name might be mud now.
I think you're being a bit harsh on the British left. Granted, there are loonies, but remember also the mainstream left in the UK provided a radical, progressive alternative while remaining true to fundamental principles of political liberty. This wasn't something to be taken for granted in the troubled first half of the twentieth century. And although there was a slide into militancy in the 1980s, the left rebirthed itself with New Labour, something I think history will be far kinder to than political commentators today.
Quote from: Warspite on April 24, 2012, 05:37:16 PM
I think you're being a bit harsh on the British left. Granted, there are loonies, but remember also the mainstream left in the UK provided a radical, progressive alternative while remaining true to fundamental principles of political liberty. This wasn't something to be taken for granted in the troubled first half of the twentieth century. And although there was a slide into militancy in the 1980s, the left rebirthed itself with New Labour, something I think history will be far kinder to than political commentators today.
I thought it was clear I was talking about the far left.
I entirely agree with the bold part. It's interesting how some of these groups and their fellow travellers in the occupy camp, so totally reject the post-war consensus, even though there are considerable sections of the UK electorate on the left, the right and in the centre who'd like to preserve and return to some of it.
I find their lack of perspective rather disturbing. "Capitalism has failed" they say as we go through a rather sticky patch. Have they any idea of the economic situation of the masses for the overwhelming bulk of history?
This current "austerity" would be the envy of our ancestors; come to that the wealth we enjoy today makes my youth seem like a time of relative deprivation.
Quote from: mongers on April 24, 2012, 03:33:29 PM
Seems the Social Part of Great Britain is in dispute with some johnny come latelys::
Quote
The SPGB is vehemently anti-Leninist and currently fights to protect its identity against Socialist Party of England and Wales, the relatively new name of the Trotskyist former Militant tendency (in propaganda and publicity material the SPGB often styles itself simply The Socialist Party whilst SPEW uses Socialist Party (without the definite article) and contests elections as Socialist Alternative
Handy for us outside observers that we can tell them appart because one own 'The'. :hmm:
I like the fact that their acronym is SPEW. :D
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 25, 2012, 01:03:12 AM
I find their lack of perspective rather disturbing. "Capitalism has failed" they say as we go through a rather sticky patch. Have they any idea of the economic situation of the masses for the overwhelming bulk of history?
This current "austerity" would be the envy of our ancestors; come to that the wealth we enjoy today makes my youth seem like a time of relative deprivation.
I believe after the government's cuts have been fully implemented, we're back to the dark days of 2004/05 in terms of public sector spending.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on April 25, 2012, 01:03:12 AM
I find their lack of perspective rather disturbing. "Capitalism has failed" they say as we go through a rather sticky patch. Have they any idea of the economic situation of the masses for the overwhelming bulk of history?
This current "austerity" would be the envy of our ancestors; come to that the wealth we enjoy today makes my youth seem like a time of relative deprivation.
of course not. A total lack of perspective is what plagues people like that.